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You mnentioned getting a light anchor as teh anchor seems to be getting bogged down. Remember that in Scandi casting that the leader is the anchor, and needs to quite long. A mono leader will give a lighter anchor than a poly too. That's might take on it anyway.
 

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Too much dip causes the front of the anchor to flip upstream - or in the extreme case crash the anchor. Those are errors, plain and simple. If you are using exacty the right dip, even if it is just due to your rod bending, and regardless of what you FEEL you are doing, the anchor will land straight. I tend to watch what the line does, and hence what the tip of the rod does. If I see a slight dip, and everything is working correctly, with an anchor that lands straight and lightly, that by definition is a correctly executed cast. Is it true that people have a habit of doing too much and messing things up? Absolutely - that nice tip motion leading to the anchor landing straight and light is the whole game. I think the idea mentioned above of “not thinking about a dip” is probabaly a good one if you are having trouble with too much upstream bend in, and especially in the extreme case of crashing your anchor. But like a certain someone who claimed a constant load when the videos themselves showed his rod straightened, the videos don’t lie. If you say “no dip” and there is a dip in the video then there WAS an actual dip whether you felt it or not. Anyway, we all already know that with a long rod and a long line very small errors get multiplied.Getting it right in this case is all about delicate balance.

Also, and yes I’ve defended the tradition before a few times, there is a correct way to execute a “single Spey” with a large dip. I think as mentioned above it WAS probably a more attractive solution to casting with the very heavy pre-graphite rods, with very slow action and recovery, etc. Its not at all popular these days - certainly not with me either - but you can still execute a perfectly decent, large change in direction single spey cast with maximum dip - a.k.a. “figure of eight cast” with a straight anchor and a light touch. It’s not the way to maximize POWER with modern equipment of course, or compete in SOR. It’s probably not something you want to worry about or learning at the beginning either. But it is still a type of single Spey cast - and not merely an “error” if you execute one correctly. On more than one occasion I have seen certified instructors deliberately demonstrate this type of cast - and yes, in the 21st century. :)

Possibly that kind of single Spey cast is little more than an historical relic these days - but no sense in completely forgetting about them IMHO. The basic principles as to how and why this type of cast can also work are what remain constant forever. No sense in completely loosing this stuff.

Two from amongst dozens of example easily available online. Neither are as “Falkus-y” as they could be, but look at how light and straight the anchor lands in the second one!


 

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Gaelforce
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Too much dip causes the front of the anchor to flip upstream - or in the extreme case crash the anchor. Those are errors, plain and simple. If you are using exacty the right dip, even if it is just due to your rod bending, and regardless of what you FEEL you are doing, the anchor will land straight. I tend to watch what the line does, and hence what the tip of the rod does. If I see a slight dip, and everything is working correctly, with an anchor that lands straight and lightly, that by definition is a correctly executed cast. Is it true that people have a habit of doing too much and messing things up? Absolutely - that nice tip motion leading to the anchor landing straight and light is the whole game. I think the idea mentioned above of “not thinking about a dip” is probabaly a good one if you are having trouble with too much upstream bend, and especially in the extreme case of crashing your anchor. But like a certain someone who claimed a constant load when the videos themselves showed his rod straightened, the videos don’t lie. If you say “no dip” and there is a dip in the video then there WAS an actual dip whether you felt it or not. Anyway, we all already know that with a long rod and a long line very small errors get multiplied.Getting it right in this case is all about delicate balance.

Also, and yes I’ve defended the tradition before a few times, there is a correct way to execute a “single Spey” with a large dip. I think as mentioned above it WAS probably a more attractive solution to casting with the very heavy pre-graphite rods, with very slow action and recovery, etc. Its not at all popular these days - certainly not with me either - but you can still execute a perfectly decent, large change in direction single spey cast with maximum dip - a.k.a. “figure of eight cast” with a straight anchor and a light touch. It’s not the way to maximize POWER with modern equipment of course, or compete in SOR. It’s probably not something you want to worry about or learning at the beginning either. But it is still a type of single Spey cast - and not merely an “error” if you execute one correctly. On more than one occasion I have seen certified instructors deliberately demonstrate this type of cast - and yes, in the 21st century. :)

Possibly that kind of single Spey cast is little more than an historical relic these days - but no sense in completely forgetting about them IMHO. The basic principles as to how and why this type of cast can also work are what remain constant forever. No sense in completely loosing this stuff.

Two from amongst dozens of example easily available online. Neither are as “Falkus-y” as they could be, but look at how light and straight the anchor lands in the second one!


Definitely promotes top hand over bottom 🤷🏻‍♂️ And why would you want to throw slack into the cast by going opposite of where you are trying to go 😜
 

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Definitely promotes top hand over bottom 🤷🏻‍♂️ And why would you want to throw slack into the cast by going opposite of where you are trying to go 😜
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against your using expedient means to teach, even if it may sometimes involve an element of trickery. I’m not even against you advocating for your favorite techniques. But when you say things like this I have to disagree with how you are phrasing it. It’s just wrong IMHO. If a couple of videos of it working perfectly aren’t enough then I play my PhD in physics card against your Spey instructor card. I’m not going to say it somehow must make physical sense (when it doesnt) because you are a great caster.

The line is accelerating - in fact must accelerate through the whole repositinging move to work correctly. As you learn in high school the acceleration has two parts, an increasing speed of the mass of line in the direction it is moving AND a change in direction - as along a curve with constant speed, for example. Of course there is also always gravity. The TENSION in the line (that is directly countered by the bend in the rod),which is the only physically reasonable definition (not to mention measurable quantity) of the “lack of slack” is due to the acceleration - speed and shape of the curve of the line through the air relative to gravity. And there are an infinite number of ways to get to the SAME tension in the line using different paths and accelerations, not to mention an even larger number of paths where you create slack and loose power, or even control. A curve does not always equal slack! It’s a physical fact that the proper tension and control, as well as power, can be created correctly a large number of ways. If you don’t believe the the evidence of your own eyes above, then maybe a bit of this may be inspirational. :)

 

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Gaelforce
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Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against your using expedient means to teach, even if it may sometimes involve an element of trickery. But when you say things like this I have to disagree with how you are phrasing it. It’s just wrong IMHO. If a couple of videos of it working perfectly aren’t enough then I play my PhD in physics card against your Spey instructor card. I’m not going to say it somehow must make physical sense (when it doesnt) because you are great caster.

The line is accelerating - in fact must accelerate through the whole repositinging move to work correctly. As you learn in high school the acceleration has two parts, an increasing velocity of the line in the direction it is moving AND a change in direction as along a curve with constant velocity, for example. Of course there is also always gravity. The TENSION in the line (that is directly countered by the bend in the rod),which is the only physically reasonable definition (not to mention measurable quantity) of the “lack of slack” is due to the acceleration - speed and shape of the curve of the line through the air relative to gravity. And there are an infinite number of ways to get to the SAME tension in the line using different paths an accelerations, not to mention an even larger number of paths where you create slack and loose power, or even control. A curve does not always equal slack! It’s a physical fact that the proper tension and control, as well as power, can be created correctly a large number of ways. If you don’t believe the the evidence of your own eyes above, then maybe a bit of this may be inspirational. :)

I guess that’s why all the top casters in the world are doing the faulkus in comps ………. Oh wait they are not 🤓
and the promotion of top hand use On the faulkus 🤔

 
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I guess that’s why all the top casters in the world are doing the faulkus in comps ………. Oh wait they are not 🤓
and the promotion of top hand use On the faulkus 🤔
I don’t think anyone but you was talking about, or interested in, why what distance competition casters do what they do, with rods and lines almost no one wants to fish with. I utterly reject - utterly - that that type of casting is the be all and end all standard for any and all Spey casting.

But my only point is that it is also possible to do a single Spey with a dip, even a large dip, correctly, with control and power, a straight anchor, and a light touch. It’s NOT wrong or a MISTAKE. It just IS. It’s only a mistake when you don’t get the right results. In my view there is no real sense in dumbing things down to the point of empty dogmatism. When you are teaching you can just say “stick with these principles for now, but remember that there are many ways to skin a cat when you get better.”
 

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Gaelforce
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I don’t think anyone but you was talking about, or interested in, why what distance competition casters do what they do, with rods and lines almost no one wants to fish with. I utterly reject - utterly - that that type of casting is the be all and end all standard for any and all Spey casting.

But my only point is that it is also possible to do a single Spey with a dip, even a large dip, correctly, with control and power, a straight anchor, and a light touch. It’s NOT wrong or a MISTAKE. It just IS. It’s only a mistake when you don’t get the right results. In my view there is no real sense in dumbing things down down to the point of empty dogmatism. When you are teaching you can just say “stick with these principles for now, but remember that there are many ways to skin a cat when you get better.”
Well all those great “distance” casters are also the best casters in the world no matter what equipment or distances so there’s that.
I agree there are many ways to make the cast but would you agree that line follows rod tip….always?
if so the easiest and most efficient way is getting the rod tip to target or where you want to cast too without hinging and from there it’s a simple switch cast to complete your single spey.
oh and what about the promotion of top hand with the faulkus😏 which is part of what contributes to a dip. The videos you showed are definitely not light anchors but rather borderline crashed and the anchor further back than wanted because of the top hand use my observation anyways
i do so enjoy our discussions Bots 😎
 
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… if so the easiest and most efficient way is getting the rod tip to target or where you want to cast too without hinging and from there it’s a simple switch cast to complete your single spey.
No, I do not agree. I think I have been clear about that from the beginning - there is not one, universal valuation on what is “best”. I think this way of speaking is pure gobbledegook, added on after you have already developed a style that works for you. But we are all susceptible to this - it is part of human nature. The antidote is a bit of humility and openness.

Now if you want to come up with a better, more physically correct way of explaining why what you do works for you then I will be happy to run it through my physics reality parser. But I’ve only ever been interested in demonstting there are multiple ways that work correctly. Your constant dogmatism on these subjects, including criticisms of other members and thread hijacks, is frankly exhausting.

But as far as I’m concerned one example such as the videos I linked above is enough to prove it works great another way as well. Q.E.D. It’s not a mistake, just different.
 

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Gaelforce
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No, I do not agree. I think I have been clear about that from the beginning. I think this way of speaking is pure gobbledegook, added on after you have already developed a style that works for you. Now if you want to come up with a better, more physically correct way of explaining why what you do works for you then I will be happy to run it through my physics reality parser.

But as far as I’m concerned one example such as the videos I linked above is enough to prove it works great another way as well. Q.E.D. It’s not a mistake, just different.
Wow I’m surprised…….if the rod tip moves one way or the other the line follows 🤷🏻‍♂️ So your saying that’s not true? 😳
kind of like the video you showed already 😏. Oh and again for the third time I’m asking about the promotion of the top hand with the faulkus
 

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Wow I’m surprised…….if the rod tip moves one way or the other the line follows 🤷🏻‍♂️ So your saying that’s not true? 😳
kind of like the video you showed already 😏. Oh and again for the third time I’m asking about the promotion of the top hand with the faulkus
Come on Bruce, I clipped out the part I was disagreeing with in the quote. You are switching away from your original point, that there is one “best” way, but specifically your “reason” for this statement which makes no actual physical sense. I explained how the physics of the other way also works perfectly well. It actually does - see videos. End of discussion.
 

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Gaelforce
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Come on Bruce, I clipped out the part I was disagreeing with. You are switching away from your original point, that there is one “best” way, but specifically your “reason” for this statement which makes no actual physical sense. I explained how the physics of the other way also works perfectly well. It actually does - see videos. End of discussion.
I did agree with you about there being lots of ways to make the cast just some are better than others
so for the record you don’t agree that the line follows the rod tip?
I won’t ask a fourth time about the top hand on the faulkus 😜
my original point is that the faulkus is a cast that promotes lots of faults as in the top hand doing way more than it should
 

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Botsari, that second video of yours features a 47' (32' head + 15' tip) sink tip line, Gaelforce's Equalizer Extended Multi Tip (EEMT). By the looks of it, a sink tip (not the floater) is looped to the head, and that current isn't fast, so a high initial lift would be required to get that tip surfaced. But the sweep shows a lot of incline a la Bruce Kruk. Observations, observations, observations ...
 

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Botsari, that second video of yours features a 47' (32' head + 15' tip) sink tip line, Gaelforce's Equalizer Extended Multi Tip (EEMT). By the looks of it, a sink tip (not the floater) is looped to the head, and that current isn't fast, so a high initial lift would be required to get that tip surfaced. But the sweep shows a lot of incline a la Bruce Kruk. Observations, observations, observations ...
Yes. You still have to match the other parts of the cast to the degree of dip, and the context exactly as you mention. My whole argument about this stuff has been an inclusive one. There is nothing about doing a figure of eight style single spey that invalidates anything else about good casting. If you watch the actual path of the line even with the big dip at the beginning it flattens out very quickly because all the accelerations and consequent forces balance that way. Many ways to skin that cat. Of course a bigger dip requires a higher initial lift (and you can see that in the video) to get it all to work out so perfect in the end. It also goes without saying that you can’t do any kind of SS without sweeping back up after such a dip, and in the correct way! But your point is also well taken that you may have practical reasons, not just stylistic choices, to do the cast that way - like it may be one way to yoink out a sink tip. We could even go off on a tangent about even weirder casts like the circle Spey. But if you adjust things you can of course do a figure of eight SS with a full floating head just as easy and cleanly. Or shorter and longer heads. I haven’t been the one saying there is only one way that is “best”. It’s just another way of doing a SS where all the forces also can be made to balance nicely - just differently.

I think I liked that particular video because you can see the path of the tip and line very well from the camera angle, as well as the anchor. Plus the camera man pans at the end so you can see the end result is very powerful - at least enough to see the caster is not missing out on anything. It is perfect as is. But I didn’t put a lot of thought in the choice - I just needed one example of it working beautifully with a big dip to make my point.

Needless to say different ways of doing it do have different pitfalls for the unwary, and THAT is definitely something that someone learning to do them for the first time should be aware of. Like I said before, I have no problem with an instructor telling the beginner to do them in one specific way. I wouldn’t even have a problem with the idea that zero dip is the best way to LEARN it. Leaving aside that Bruce’s way of explaining why the dip is a mistake doesn’t make sense to me as a physicist, you can see from these videos and more that it CAN be made to work perfectly well.
 

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Gaelforce
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Botsari, that second video of yours features a 47' (32' head + 15' tip) sink tip line, Gaelforce's Equalizer Extended Multi Tip (EEMT). By the looks of it, a sink tip (not the floater) is looped to the head, and that current isn't fast, so a high initial lift would be required to get that tip surfaced. But the sweep shows a lot of incline a la Bruce Kruk. Observations, observations, observations ...
Bruce does not incline on the sweep 😏 bruce Inclines on the lift 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

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I have seen many fisherman (not competition casters) struggle with anchor placement by going flat. One in particular was having so much trouble that I suggested to him a slight dip (I call it a curtsy) to help place the anchor in the proper position. When he did this he was immediately “in the game” and making very acceptable Single Speys. For absolute distance no way would I dip however, we have to remember most guys want to fish and are not interested in 150’ casts all day long. If a slight dip helps them achieve this that’s great! It’s a fishing cast we are talking about here, not competition casting. I would not dismiss the teaching methods of Simon or Ian, they are both great casters. Their methods work for them as well as many other fisherman. I’m sure most of us all started out in this game doing high lifts and big dips but we evolved over the years to using flatter rod movements. 99% of the guys just want to make acceptable fishing casts, if a slight dip helps then good for them.

Gene Oswald
 
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