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Indicators Anonymous
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Given that popularity of recent additions to the shorter head market (Airflo Delta and now the SA Short Head) and the fad that is now shoter head lines, is it time for Rio to retool the Windcutter.

The Windcutter is still a great line (I own 'em, fish 'em and sell 'em) and will go down in the history as the line that started it all but given the master line developers Rio has in their arsenal, I do think it would be interesting to see what sort of product Rio could present us with as their past additions have always been top notch and raised the bar on Spey lines (Accelerator, Midspey, Grandspey and even for some, the Scandanavian Head especially the multi-tip version).

It just seems that in my recent experiences, more people who know what they want/what they are doing are purchasing the Windcutters to chop them into Skagit lines than to fish them with their full 54' belly. And given that amazing line that SA has introduced in their Short Head, maybe its time for Rio to improve or completely retool the Windcutter.

And on a finishing note, I still find the Windcutter Versi-Tip to be the best multi-tip shorter head available. The SA Short Head is not yet available as a multi-tip and I have had issues with the Airflo loops (plus the Airflo does not have the versality that Windcutter does).

Thoughts??
 

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blah blah blah.. Quite frankly i get tired of hearing the newest and greatest way to do things. I get sick of all the ultra technical cutting this line to do this or that.
The windcutter is a great fishing line straight out of the box. you get everything you need in one box and takes no time to figure it out. it does anything that any other spey line does, it just does it differently. I use them and will continue to use them stock out of the box for all my sink tip work. I'll leave the thinking to people that enjoy it..

argue this way and that but one thing will remain a fact of history. the Rio Windcutter is the line that made spey rods popular. Without the windcutter this resurgance of enthusiasm for 2 handed rods would not have occurred. The windcutter made spey casting learnable for thousands of anglers.
It's a great fishing line and the best platform for throwing tips commercially available.

Windcutters for tips
xlt's and Double tapers for floating line work

my new motto: quit thinking and go fishing
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Although I feel there is merit in fishing anglers, I also think there is merit in thinking line designers.

I think it would be naive to think that Jim and Simon are sitting idle on their laurels, in fact I know of no more dynamic and innovative line company in history than Rio Products looking at their broad spectrum of line solutions.

I, a fishing angler, am grateful to have them thinking on my behalf.

But many of the new lines that companies are making are ideas brought about by tinkering anglers... like you and I.

It's all good!
 

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#&%*@^# Caster
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Hmm peter...

Looking at your rod selection I can possibly see why the windcutters do not load short for you. Seems most of your rods are stiffer rods that need a little more to cast short with. I know that is the case with my T&T 1409. Do not like windcutters on it at all.

I say this cause with the rods I use regularly (cnd's and meisers) I have no trouble throwing short with a windcutter. It seems your dissapointment with the windcutter could also have something to do with rod selection as well. Just a thought...

That being said I like the new SA short head and hardy machs a lot more than the windcutter. The windcutter did start it all however and I am looking forward to what they come out with next!

-sean





-sean
 

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Indicators Anonymous
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Peter-
The situation you are describing sounds like a situation best suited to a single-hander or a short two-hander.

If I ever ran into a situation where I was concerned with fishing water that right in front of and/or water where a 33' head is too long, I would grab the single-hander in a heart beat.

If you run the proper line systems on a 9'6"-10' rod, you will have a much easier and more pleasureable time covering the water in front of you while still being able to cover the water that is 60'-90' out.

If I am routinely fishing water that is 45' and in, I have no use for a two-hander...especially anything over 13'.

But then, thats just me (I love pulling out the single-hander...she's like an extension of my arm...second nature so to speak...the two-hander is not however)...
 

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I routinely start fishing a run with only the leader coming out the guides. The length of the head of a line is totally irrelevant where fishable distances are concerned. Who ever said you had to fish the whole head? Anywhere where speyfishing is done I could effectively use the windcutter for any species, any size river. any senario you can concieve of where spey fishing is done a windcutter will work with the same effectivness as any other line.

Now all that said I am not a big fan of the windcutter and only use it for sink tip work i almost never use it for floating line work because I don't like the way it casts. I much prefer the elegance and smoothness of a longer bellied line or a double taper.. My point was mainly on the historical signifigance of the rio windcutter. Without the windcutter far fewer people would be into spey fishing..
In todays world I'd have to say yes the western North America is the epicenter of spey fishing. More people do it here than anywhere else in the world because there is more opportunity here than anywhere else in the world for people to go fishing and more innovation comes from this area than any other.

I am not saying this to take away from any other fly line or any other area of the world or any casting technique or anything like that. I am just saying that over the last 20 years more people have learned on a windcutter than any other line in the world. The reasons are 1 it's easy to cast 2. the versatility of the versa tip system. In that respect it's a great and fully functional fly line and quite possibly has had the greatest impact on spey fishing than any other single piece of eqipment. If the windcutter hadn't made spey fishng easy to learn tons of people would never have made the switch to a 2 handed rod
 

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Jolly Buddha
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NF16

What this ---- ---- about a single hander:tsk_tsk: :tsk_tsk: :tsk_tsk: :tsk_tsk: :tsk_tsk: :tsk_tsk: :tsk_tsk: :tsk_tsk: :tsk_tsk: :tsk_tsk:
 

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peter-s-c said:
I was using a 33' Loop head. Half the time, I had much of it in the guides, and at times, some of it on the reel. With the Loop head, I could fish the water right in front of me then lengthen out the cast until I had covered the water right up to the gorge wall or far bank
Peter, I'm with you on this one. I like the flexibility as I walk/wade a river. i don't want the hassle of hauling around a second rod -- single hander -- for the close-in water.
 

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Steelhead are cool!
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I still use a windcutter 9/10/11 on my sage 9140. I can fish in close or reach out there. I have never installed tip two though. In winter most of the time I use a 24' type six cut back to 18'. I am picking up a CND 1308 custom and will probaly use this set for winter on this rod as well. I may have to trim 3' or so off of the type six. Then again maybe I will get the SA shorthead and build a Ed W. type tip system. I guess what I am kinda trying to say is windcutters are still a great and effective line. Thats it I have had way to much line talk here I need to fish!:D

Kevin
 

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Steelhead are cool!
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Peter, I must admit I have not cast a whole lot of different tip lines. I do know the 10/11/12 with tip 2 removed is much nicer to cast heavy tips with than my 9/10/11 but I just haven't bit the bullit and shelled out another $150.00 for the heavier line. That is why I am looking into the SA shorthead. I have never tried any Scan. heads but would like to or loop adapted.

Kevin
 

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Indicators Anonymous
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
peter-s-c said:
However, I'd leave you with this thought. Many people here have talked about the need to remove tip 2 to be able to cast the heavier heads (T-6 and T-8). The Delta doesn't have a tip 2. It doesn't need to as it can cast it's heaviest head (a T-7) as is.
You do not need to remove tip 2 to cast type VI or type VIII tips and in fact, if you were to remove tip to and loop on the stock type VI or type VIII you would have a very difficult time casting the setup as you have suddenly lost a considerable amount of grains.

The situation when you would remove tip 2 (aside from fishing the line 'Skagit Style') is when you are fishing a heavier tip such as a Big Boy, a longer length of t-14 etc.
 

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"However, the advice on removing tip 2 for the T-6 and T-8 tips has been written here more than once, I've heard the advice given, and I've received this advice as well."

Peter--

If my memory is correct such advice was givennot b/c WC does not work well, but rather to teach others how to use it to make shooting heads and how this line can be used for custom applications.
Take for example T&T 1307, works well with MidSpey 6/7 and max. WC this rod tolerates is 7/8/9 ( 525 gr.). However if you use WC 8/9/10 22’ belly + sink tip from this WC you will get very good performance , b/c this set up has 425-450 gr only.
Entire WC 8/9/10 has 585 gr ,way to much for T&T 1307.
 

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What about T-6 ?
If you use tip 2 intermediate (introduced, I believe, last year) plus T-6, you will get as low as with T-8 and tip 2 floating.
How about T-8 plus tip 2 intermediate?
 

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Pullin' Thread
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Based on some of what has been posted in this thread, myself and others who prefer to fish the extended-belly lines like the GrandSpey and XLT should not be able to turn over type 8 tips since we are casting 80-85 feet of belly plus the type 8 tip. Only problem with this is that those of use who use the extended belly lines have no problem turning over type and type 8 tips, including on those occassional runs where a cast of 120 ft is not too far. I guess we just never figured out we weren't supposed to be able to do this with the llong lines.

Regarding lines most learned to spey cast on, it depends a lot on whether a person learned to spey cast prior to the Windcutter becoming avaible or is it was after the the MidSpey became available. If it was pre-Windcutter, nearly everone learned with a double taper because that was pretty much all that was available short of cutting up a lot of lines and splicing your own together.

If it was post-MidSpey, many learned on it or the Long Delta because these lines were recommended to them by the more experienced spey casters for them to avoid developing bad spey casting habits or poor technique, which the short-belly lines can cause a beginner to develop because they will still allow a cast to be made when the anchor is placed too far down stream.

That said, the Windcutter is still a good line if a person doesn't want to learn how to cast tips with the mid-belly lines, or if you are fishing smaller rivers where a 60-70 ft cast put you on the far bank.

Personally, I never fish one anymore. I prefer to use an extended belly GrandSpey line on my 15 and 16 ft rods, and a MidSpey 8/9 or GrandSpey 7/8 on my 13 ft rod. Why? A lot less line stripping (if any), better mending, and it is more enjoyable for me to cast the extended belly and mid-belly lines. On top of this, either the extended belly lines allow you to cast from 50 ft to 100 feet without stripping line, and the mid-belly lines allow you to cast from 50 ft to 80 ft without stripping line. I find this to be much more efficient than stripping in a Windcutter or other short-belly line before the next cast can be made.
 

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W/C Lines

I am not sure how this thread started but I find the WC line to be an exceptional line. Especially here in the MW. I have a multitude of these lines from the multi-tip versions to floaters to lines I purchased with the purpose of cutting them and turning them into skagit style lines. I have yet to find one scenario where I cant use this line or where this line does not work well. Are there times when a different rod and or line make more sense? Sure! But does that mean that the WC is passe or no longer and important piece of my arsenal. Never.

There are definitely times when I prefer to use something else. For instance Peter constantly talks about fishing small streams in tight quarters but doesnt want to use a one hander. Neither do I. But do I pull out a 13 or 14 ft two hander with a WC and try to make it work. No, I use a switch rod and or a shorter spey rod. I have a loop that is 11'3" that works great in these types of situations and yes I am fishing a standard floating WC on it. If I need to use tips to get down a little deeper I add a 10' Poly Leader. Works extremely well and I have no problem casting effectively out to about 60' or 70' with this set up.

On the same note in winter when I am fishing some bigger rivers that stay open and I need to make longer casts and present the fly a little deeper I go to a 14 or 15' 8/9/10 wt rod. And yes I have a WC set up for this as well. With tip two removed I have no problem throwing a Rio Big boy to try and get down to the fish. Is this the perfect setup? Probably not since in the winter I hate to do a lot of stripping for obvious reasons. But it will definitely work. I prefer the MS in this situation and seem to like it a lot.

I personally think that I would be lost if RIO stopped making this line. Would I find other suitable replacements? Probably but it wouldnt be the same. The WC is a great all around line that works well in so many different ways. I see the WC evolving into a great number of different lines something that would contain the following. A floater, a multi-tip, a WC skagit line, who knows what else. But it is definitely not PASSE or past its prime!






:tsk_tsk:
 

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some people
1. hate fishing sink tips, the WC makes them easy
2. some people hate messing with their gear. The don't like or cannot afford to cut up lines or spend 50 bucks experimenting. The windcutter works straight out of the box.

some people don't get into this sport to spend hours fiddeling with stuff in fact some people are immensly turned off by all the new and latest gear, gadgets,and fads.
Some people understand that steelhead fishing should be about disciplining yourself to spend time on the water presenting as best you can and being content with that as an end to itself and that when you finially present to the right fish comes the extra reward. For people like that ( me)
the windcutter is a superb tool
i'm not a caster i am just a fisherman casting 10 feet i could care less if my rod loads but of course with a sink tip it does anyway..
 

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Jolly Buddha
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lines

That is what I said years ago.
Now I go crazy with all the new stuff (don't answer that)
 

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EAT IT!!!
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This conversation is kinda funny. To the general public (not us speygeeks) the windcutter IS the spey line. There are far worse choices, for all the above reasons. I would love to be able to fish tips on a Grandspey, but the truth is, I probably couldn't cast the line worth a poop. With a windcutter, I can catch fish, could from the first few days of practice with it. How long does it take somebody to learn to cast the head of a Grandspey with a sinktip and turn it and the leader over 80-90 percent of the time? If it were that easy, we'd all be using them. The windcutter makes fishing with a two hander fun, in that it is relatively easy to get good enough with it to make presentations which catch fish. That's why it is often recomended to beginners. Sure the Delta or SA Short head may be great lines, but out of the box they don't have the flexibility of a windcutter and for a beginer the windcutter provides 4 season fishing capability that is easy as heck to use. What more do you want?:)
 

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Passe, my ***e!

I agree with the good Doctor... this conversation is way funny!

Can't turn over the tips with your Windcutter? Maybe it's time to examine your casting technique. Windcutters only for small rivers? Once again, you'd better be checking your casting abilities. I'm here to tell you, that if you KNOW HOW TO CAST, you can achieve tremendous distance with the Windcutter. I know several people that can throw a 14' 9 weight rod over 100' with a Windcutter. 15' 10 weights out to 120'.

Most people that bag on Windcutters, do so because their casting technique sucks. The Windcutter is an awesome line, and will probably continue to be so for quite some time.
 
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