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Discussion Starter #1
I've been reading and listening to all the comments created on speypages for the past two to three years and have found the site to be humorous, insightful, and helpful. I have noticed that there is something out there that is leading this sport or this way of fishing away from it's roots. Away from all thing's that gave so much in the last two or three hundred years. The very thing's that we all fell in love with when we first had that light go on in our heads saying, (THIS MAKE'S SENSE). If it look's like duck, walk's like a duck, fly's like a duck, then IT'S A DUCK.
What I'm talking about is this new way of fishing that everyone in the great northwest is trying to sell as something new and exciting. The Skagit Style... There's a reason for doing what they do and it's called no fish! So the one man that has found a way to catch more than the next is saying."this is the new way for spey caster's to follow." OH PLEASE, just because they have let the gear fishmen, the meat eaters and the dam builders destroy their stocks now they want us to use gear instead of a fly. The rod manufacturers and the line manufacturers have all started to create new equiptment to handle this monstrosity of a fly that looks like a plug. Again, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, it has to be a duck. As for me I will continue to hold fast to the traditional way of spey casting and fishing for Steelhead and Salmon. One that is so steep in the tradition of SPEY.
 

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I don’t think anyone is trying to sell you on new ways of catching fish as much offering alternatives to traditional methods. Some folks may follow a certain technique for a while, but always go back to what works best for them. They take what they need and leave the rest. There are a million ways to skin a cat and I think it’s great that you will hold fast to traditional methods. Someone should be left behind so that when people fail to adapt, they can all start their own site called, “Failure to Adapt Pages.” I respect your opinion and believe in your right to voice your opinion. But if your opinion looks like crap and smells like crap, then it probably is crap.
 

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speyhead said:
I've been reading and listening to all the comments created on speypages for the past two to three years and have found the site to be humorous, insightful, and helpful...
After reading your post I find myself doubting that you ever contributed anything to make this site humourous, insightful, and helpful in those three years.
 

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Here we go again!
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mattzoid said:
They take what they need and leave the rest..... if you opinion looks like crap and smells like crap, then it probably is crap.

Very well said!! :razz:
 

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SRO Direct Dealer
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Speyhead

Skagit Style is using water tension instead of the weight of airialized line to load the rod. You can use the Skagit cast with all types of lines and flies. Works great in windy conditions and situations with limited room behind to form a D loop. You do not need specialized rods or lines to cast Skagit Style. It is just another tool to put into your creel which broadens the enjoyment fo being on the river in all conditions. I have cast everything from Loop and Rio short heads to XLT line Skagit Style.

When the wind is blowing your anchor all over the river try using the water to load the rod instead of going home.

Rich
 

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#&%*@^# Caster
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OH PLEASE, just because they have let the gear fishmen, the meat eaters and the dam builders destroy their stocks now they want us to use gear instead of a fly.
Cmon. So the gear guys are the ones to blame for the depressed stocks? How insightful of you. Get off your high horse because we are all part of the problem. Now we need to work together to help the resource. Statements like the above only cause resentment and hate among the angling groups.

As for the skagit style one does not need to use heavy flies to make it work. It you are not an intruder fan do not use it. The casting method works with all types of flies, especially those 3/0 full dressed salmon flies that real traditionalists use ;)

It is no more an abomination then the underhand , snake roll, etc. They are just methods that have arose to get more out of spey fishing for the angler. No one is holding a gun to your head saying "You must skagit cast!".

-sean
 

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The sad thing about our sport is the tendency for people to be elevated to messiah status. While some people seek this fame because it appeals to their ego or their pocketbook, others are embarrassed by the attention and would prefer to be left alone to fish. It seems to me that the inventor of the Intruder falls into the latter category. Last I checked he didn’t have a website, an endorsement deal or a newsletter. Now he might catch a few more fish than the rest of us but could this be because he spends more time on the water and knows it better? In my opinion, attaching ulterior motives to him is far from factual.

It is fine with me if you think the Skagit style to be a bit of a fad, I might even agree. It is no different than the frenzy that accompanied the XLT and Grandspeys a couple years ago. Skagit casting is incredibly functional though and easier on the body than throwing a long bellied line with tips. To my way of thinking, if you enjoy it and it works for you, so what?
 

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Speyhead,

I think you should take up trolling as it appears you are pretty good at the internet version of it :tsk_tsk:
 

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Flyfishing Camp Cook
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speyhead said:
OH PLEASE, just because they have let the gear fishmen, the meat eaters and the dam builders destroy their stocks now they want us to use gear instead of a fly. The rod manufacturers and the line manufacturers have all started to create new equiptment to handle this monstrosity of a fly that looks like a plug.
Yeah, if you go back to the roots of most "fly legends" here in the NW, you'll see alot of well known names that have dead steelhead and salmon in their hands. So flyfisherman 40, hell, even 30 years ago where dispatching salmon and steelhead while using fly rods (well, even to this day there are those that do). So you can't bias the whole group as the culprits. Trey Combs book shows lots of pictures in itself of dead steelhead caught by flyfisherman. BIG steelhead at that, all fins intact. :Eyecrazy:

The fly you're talking about, is it the intruder? Only thing I can think of. If you think that's a plug, need to invite you over and show you what they look like. LOL. Have a good collection of hotshots, wigglewarts, kwikkies, etc, and none look like ANY fly I've ever seen. :hihi: I love people who speak tradition. If you go by tradition, I assume you also spey fish with an old greenheart rod that uses leather to lash the pieces together. You would be running a silk line on an old clunker brass fly reel that weighs a good 5 pounds. Tradition is what you make of it. Sports grow and change all the time. No one can truly say they are more "pure" of sport then the other. Very few of us use antiquated gear on a regular basis. I dabble with old rods myself fishing, but not the majority of the time. I highly doubt that two handers are being used exclusively like they were 100+ years ago. Times change, people change, fishing styles change.
 

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As a once avid skiier I have to look at the paradox of Spey fishing to that of skiing. Growing up in the Rocky Mtns. I have seen a evolution take place. Once upon a time you had to put in many hours if not years to become an accomplished skier, learning how to tackle powder, crud, and whatever mother nature threw at you. To become an talented skiier took alot of time and effort. Then came the Snow Boards. We skiiers looked down on them and many resorts would not even let them on their slopes. They represented the bottom feeders of the sport. No longer did it take alot of talent to tackle the powder and the crud, technology had solved this through the wide board. The youth of the sport quickly found this niche and claimed it as there own. Snowboarding now has found its place in the world and has become even an Olympic event. But we as traditional skiiers still hold true the values of the sport, and carry on, even though our masses are thinned. Spey fishing has taken on a similiar character. I see the time and effort I have put in to this sport over the last five years, and If Spey fishing had a handicap compared to that of golf, I would say that I am probably a 4 or 5, and just like golf, to get a handicap to this level took alot of effort on my part. I can see fully well Speyheads point of view, in that we are loosing much of the tradition of the sport to faster quicker rods that enable use to use shorter heavier line with tips. Those taking up the sport are not interested in learning the traditional ways but what there buddies are telling them. I don't know where we are going from here, but I am starting to see a devergence taking place, much like the skiiers and the snowboarders. I can't see this being good for the sport. We need to accept all new methods, but not forget those of the past. That is why events such as the Claves are important to keep up on the lastest technologies, but yet, keep everyone in touch with the traditions of the sport. These Spey Claves should be a bonding that allow us to share our ideas and express our thoughts.
 

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Flyfishing Camp Cook
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Well, I think the point you have to go to is how much into "tradition" do you dwelve. I see your point Yelostn801. But how traditional are you really with snow skiing? Not sure on your age, but I'm sure the gear you learned on wasn't what alot of the old time skiiers learned on. Old wooden skis, true leather boots, cane ski poles, etc. Like anything in life, we progress and change. To get truly in "touch" with the sport, read my example above. Then you'll truly be in touch with tradition of the sport. I'm sure Major Grant, or any other Spey fisherman of yesteryear didn't use nice plastic coated lines with lightweight spey reels and lightweight rods. I have an old spey rod from 1860, and the thing weighs literally 3-4#'s (yes pounds). From some standpoints, those of you wanting tradition aren't going back far enough. You're going on actually more conventional spey fishing.

You have to realize, we're all anglers out here. We all have a love for the sport. You're not any more, or less, of a fisherman because of the method they use. You have to realize that it's all transition. I guess if we're fishing the river Spey, then fine, fish "Spey style". But what is going on is a blend of Euro style and US style. Making it a style of our own. To add to this, should be dump using two handers all together, since it goes away from "our" roots of one handers here in the US? We all are growing and changing. Change isn't always good, but it happens nonetheless. I don't see anything wrong with it.
 

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Yelostn801,

I have to call a little BS here,

I would like to extend your apparant paradox to a different end. Snowboarding did indeed save skiing. Skiing had been very stagnant development wise and was losing it's appeal. Snowboarding did indeed garner a significant amount of the younger snowsports enthusiasts due to it's shorter learning curve and as you say the advantages of a wider board. This got the ski industry off it's keister and they were forced to revamp their products. With some money being spent on r&d and some inspiration from our snowboarding brethern skiis got revolutionized. We had twin tips for the crazy kids, shorter carving skiis for the masses, and of course big wide ones for people like me to rip big fat lines on. Now skiing
is enjoying a resurgence and the number of skiiers outnumber boarders at most resorts. To what do we owe this-snowboarding of course. In general the new skiis are lighter, easier to turn, shorter and better adapted to their intended use. Yeah there is a definate paradox here and I would say it has everything to do with evolution and finding a 'better' way to 'skin a cat'. As for traditional speycasting-it still has it's following and is as enjoyable and beautiful as ever. Shorter rods are a natural evolution brought about by the desire to fish better, easier and longer, with less physical toll. Perhaps really a product of some better lines and getting past the misguided stigma of a long belly needed to fish a long cast. I in no way see this as fractioning our 'sport' or creating a 'devergence' as you say. Good casting is still good casting-merely adjust your style to your chosen equipment. As for speyhead I am sure he still rides around on a pair of green Rossi 4s's.

Brian Niska
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Interesting exchange.

I guess I am simple minded in this matter, or should I say 'purpose-driven'.

When I am wading along a snaggy bank fishing winter steelhead in a rock garden that screams "big native", a long traditional line and cast is the wrong tool for the job. A Skagit casting system (rods, lines and flies) like the Skagit Specialist and water loading methods provide the following:
  • minimal need for backcasting room
  • maximum ability to propel big flies
  • precise control of the fly's swimming path
It feels "right" and the experience is very satisfying. Afterall, it's satisfaction I fish for.

When I am working a giant BC river with a greasedline presentation for alpha steelhead, I prefer to throw the Salar or Thompson Specialists with mid, long and extended belly lines.

And when I fish a classic summer run river a 13-14ft light yet quick rod with a floating line is the right medicine.

When standing facing a howling cross-wind and chest high waves on a beach, I prefer a fast, light yet powerful overhead casting tool about 11ft long for the job with aggressive shooting heads and optimized running lines. And the stripping basket is not a fashion statement, it's a necessity.

I guess I love all of these venues. To me they balance tradition with modern thinking, I would be heaving spin rods if not for tradition yet modern thinking in fly fishing is good.

I do draw the line with indicators and split shot though :lildevl:
 

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Junkyard Spey
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Afterall, it's satisfaction I fish for.
This is getting to be a long thread with a lot of words expended. I believe the simple sentence above should be the guide to anyone's choice of tackle.
 

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Not sure on your age, but I'm sure the gear you learned on wasn't what alot of the old time skiiers learned on. Old wooden skis, true leather boots, cane ski poles, etc.

Steelhead69,

This is exactly the equiptment I learned on, well everything but the cane poles anyway and I have a few broken bones to show for it also. That should tell you a little bit about my age
As far tradition goes, I believe change is important to the progression of a sport as anyone. Look at skiing; Even though the equiptment as improved over the years because of technology, the basis of the sport has not changed. It might be easier to carve a parallel turn, but its still a parallel. The older I get, the more I appreciate such improvements in equiptment like Parbolic Skis and lighter Spey Rods. This progression is no different that of the one that took place when they found out Cane was better for making fly rods than
Greenhart. My concern is the heart and soul of the sport stays intact. It's getting easy anymore to get caught up in a method that allows one to perform at a top level of a sport, without having to go through the practice and stuggles that the pioneers and those that choose the tradional methods of that sport had to, thus enabling those that have opted to take the short cuts, to achieving the same results. That may be their choice and they may call it progress and adapting, but I call it BS, and easy way out. I believe one should learn the sport through out and not a segment of it. As Bobby Jones said about Golf "If the games worth playing then its worth playing correctly. As my previous post stated, which I believe has been misinterpetated by a couple of individuals, that the Claves would seem to me to be a valuable resource in teaching those (that want to learn), the traditional Spey Casting techniques, thus enriching their knowledge base . But I'm starting to sense that many don't care, and that they have found their nirvana of Spey Casting in a certain technique, and they state that this is the future of the sport. It's not so much the technique that bothers me, which I believe is just local thing, but the attitudes of those making the comments, I sense a cockyness, with no respect for those that have molded the sport to what it is now. I see the same thing on the ski slopes and I hope it is not contagious on the rivers.
 

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Steelhead are cool!
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Yelostn801,

Speycasting is a art form. If all artists painted or sculpted the same it would be boring. I enjoy casting longer lines but I fish with shortheads. I do not consider myself a Skagit caster. I am a Snoqualmie caster. :hihi:

Kevin
 
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