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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
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Ive been thinking about this as you can see...
3-strand fluoro, mono (10lbs) and cord compared to 3-strand twisted gut. I could probably go 4 strand with each.
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But then - what about a straight snell? Anyone doing this? This is 16# .011 Seagaur FX.
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Of course there has always been Dacron as an alternate. A spool of and twisted cord for comparison.

Your experience is sought,
Thanks.
 

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The Dude abides
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are you twisting these materials or are they coming twisted? I am in the same boat, looking for an ultimate solution.
 

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I'm just going to ask this question ....:roll:
Have you guys tried Dacron for eye loops ??
I've been using 20lb Cortland Micron backing for years and have sought no other material , I'm quite satisfied with it .
I know everyone is different and has different expectations of materials .
I'm just wondering if I'm missing anything here ??
Thanks,

Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Matt - I've twisted them by winding each strand tightly and letting them twist until they uncurl around themselves to form a "rope." Keeps the kinks out of them this way.

Mike - the bottom is a loop of 30# Dacron coated with aqua seal - and old standard for me as well. We aren't missing much by using Dacron. I used silk gut recently. If you have Im sure you are aware Dacron, while perfectly suitable, doesn't compare to gut in stiffness and hence the reason for looking into twisted fluoro and mono.

The snell I've never tried before and it's actually more simple to do than any of the above - I'm wondering why it isn't done more often...
 

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Matt Arciaga
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Using only the real deal as of late, for fishing flies id just braid three strands of that nylon upholstery thread, coats brand. Each strand is already twisted and god for 15 pounds. I tried twisting 2 and 3 strand but the results are less than consistent. Buts its f-Ing strong and cheap, and braiding up 5 inches at a time take about 5 minutes. Also what I like about this stuff is that it is smaller in diameter than Dacron, also it compressing under thread tension to almost nothing making it alot easier to build flat smooth bodies.
 

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Lagartun Pro Staff
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I use #30 pound dacron or real gut for all my flies. Although I almost only use real gut now, I never had an issue with dacron. I never coat it with anything or alter it in any way. In all the years fishing with dacron, I never had it fail, even when it was a little frayed after many fish. It is surprisingly durable.


I'm just going to ask this question ....:roll:
Have you guys tried Dacron for eye loops ??
I've been using 20lb Cortland Micron backing for years and have sought no other material , I'm quite satisfied with it .
I know everyone is different and has different expectations of materials .
I'm just wondering if I'm missing anything here ??
Thanks,

Mike
 

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I have never used "the real deal" , so again , I have no idea what I am missing .
I like the subtleness of the Dacron , it does not impede any action the currents may have on the fly .
Dacron is also very forgiving , very strong and very durable .
Another plus is if the loop doesn't totally air dry , it doesn't rot :)
I would still like to try the gut to see what it is like ... would also be really cool to use when tying a vintage pattern :smokin:


Mike
 

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seaterspey
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I to have never used the real deal and probably never will. There a few things that the modern world has given us that I would not do without and the improvements in that technology is just better.

It's nice to be old school but I'll keep that with reels of the old days.

Nothing but Dacron 20/30lb I even use the bright orange color, kind of adds some flare to my flies.

KC
 

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Matt Arciaga
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I have never used "the real deal" , so again , I have no idea what I am missing .
I like the subtleness of the Dacron , it does not impede any action the currents may have on the fly .
Dacron is also very forgiving , very strong and very durable .
Another plus is if the loop doesn't totally air dry , it doesn't rot :)
I would still like to try the gut to see what it is like ... would also be really cool to use when tying a vintage pattern :smokin:


Mike
The real deal is super stiff, I would liken it to the texture and rigidity or a hard masons mono for big game fishing, but smaller obviously. I rather like using it, it does not compress at all, so making a clean body poses additional challenges in my opinion. The other thing Ive noticed after testing a few pieces for pull out is that, it just simply doesn't, well not that Ive measured anyway. Some strength and diameter inconsistencies is expected since it is natural material and made by hand. Also the cost, at around a 1$ and inch is standard, its just damn expensive. Im sure you could find it cheaper but what the hell. Ill send you a small piece (display fly length) to tie in and see how you like when i sent the blacker fly.

if you want to get a very close good price sub Id go with AO gut sub, from the looks of it its damn close to the real stuff and he uses it on all his full dress swimmers I think.
 

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Grandpa Howard
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I have used 20 and 30 pound Dacron for as long as I have been tying. I am pretty sure, correct me if I am wrong, Dacron replaced gut back in the day. When I entered the game there was only a handful of tiers still using blind eye hooks for steelhead. A fishing buddy of mine, Greg Scott Hunt, used nothing but blind eyes. His reasoning was the Dacron eye generated more movement in the fly. Partridge was one of the only manufacture still making blind eyes and sold gut as well. Gaelic hooks were hard to find but available. As for an advantage one over the other, I don’t see one. When traditional gut gets wet it softens up to almost the same consistency. When tying with gut it was/is critical to soak the gut till it was/is soft prior to securing the loop to the hook. Failing to do so would affect the durability of the fly. Using twisted mono may replicate silk when it is dry, but fails to duplicate the same when saturated. As for display flies, I use gut. I see no need to use a substitute being gut is still available.
 

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Fishing with dacron

A fishing buddy of mine, Greg Scott Hunt, used nothing but blind eyes. His reasoning was the Dacron eye generated more movement in the fly.
I hopped on this bandwagon long ago. I used to cut the eyes off TMC 7999 hooks and put in a Dacron loop. My first steelhead was caught on a #6 red ant with Dacron loop for an eye. I have since found that an up eye hook with a non-slip loop knot has as much movement as a Dacron eye fly tied with a clinch knot. So, I have gone away from putting Dacron eyes on steelhead flies. I still tie Dacron eyes on traditional Spey, Dee and Atlantic salmon patterns, more for the aesthetics of the fly than any other reason. I don't coat the Dacron with snow seal and the eyes seem to last as long as the rest of the fly. I tend to rotate out my traditional flies after fishing with them for a season or two because I lose confidence in the hook sharpness with age and hours fishing.

Mark
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I plan to try long strand hemp string 48lb. Waxed
there's waxed horse tail hair also - among others- as possible alternates.

To be clear - I'm "talking" fishing flies here and Marty brought up a good point regarding gut: It needs to be soaked in cold water so as to soften it a bit or it will crimp when forming the loop. So, when fished it does become pliable. I tie a non-slip loop knot and keep both loops small as possible conserving the gut and the tippet. I don't feel it affects mobility in the fly at all. Same as a turley-knot for up-turned eyes.
 

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I have only used real gut. I twist my own. But thinking about switching to Dacron for fishing fly's to conserve the gut I have left for framing fly's

Rocky
 

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Like many, I've only used Dacron, as well. So I really can't compare to anything else. I have been giving some thought to a straight snell though.

I tried a few smaller patterns with a Dacron loop, and it was a bit much for the smaller hooks. A snell would be a bit more sleek and add a very nostalgic touch.

-Bill
 

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I have tried dacron...

Dacron sure lies down flat and is easy to work with when creating flies.
But after every fish the dacron seems to get shredded or frayed...

Am I alone in this??

I had not thought about coating it with aquaseal as fish0n mentions. Perhaps I would have had more success with the dacron coated that way.

Fish0n...Should I apply the aquaseal PRIOR to tying it in or AFTER?

I got frustrated with dacron and have had more success with creating a twist of 3 pieces of 12# flurocarbon. Each piece is twisted separately and identically while hanging a weight from them, and then I let them untwist TOGEHER beside each other. That way they form a collective twist like a piece of rope that remains together, even though there is no actual twist left in each individual fluoro fibre.
It's not as easy to work with when creating flies as dacron, since it is harder and tends to create bumps in the underbody, but, I do know is that it seems to hold together pretty well for more than one fish.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Yeah - coat a length of Dacron with aquaseal & let it dry. I use disposable gloves to work it in and run the Dacron through fingers to get as much of aquaseal off, still leaving a light coat. It's not the smoothest and slight bumps will show under floss or tinsel-bodies. Dubbed bodies are fine though.
 

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ive used the real thing, mono, fluoro, and dacron.


Dacron may have been one of the earlier alternatives, but it is the WORST. It is BRIGHT white. looks awful. frays. its too soft, nothing like how the real stuff is. crappy turnover for your fly. might be strong (if not frayed) and easy, but thats about it. i guess its more mobile, but with big irons i want a fairly stiff connection to the fly.

mono and fluoro: twisted. i forgot to mention twisted PROPERLY. taking three strands and twisting them together, they will want to untwist. if you wrap each strand around each other without the stands twisting individually, they will keep their twist without having to boil or heat or anything. I will post a sbs on this eventually. ALSO they look almost IDENTICAL to the real thing. In the old days, a gut leader was attached to a gut loop. why not now use a fluoro leader to a fluoro loop, or a mono leader to a mono loop?

real thing: silk gut is brittle before soaking, it decomposes etc, etc. theres a reason we dont use it today as often. Once soaked it is about the same flexibility as mono or fluoro (obviously depending on diameter etc). I use it for a vintage feel to my flies, but thats it.

there IS Japanese gut which comes in longer lengths, which I have yet to try. I dont know much about it but its more modern than the Spanish stuff and I hear people have had good success with it.


ALSO, you can try an overhand braid with whatever material you choose. might look worse than the proper twist, but it works. no tendancy to untwist or knot no matter how tight you do it. (just like a PROPER twist, as in how a gut machine would do, I have yet to see a sbs anywhere on how to do it without one, but its easy).
 

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Dom
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I just started tying blind loops and after whipping a few with dacron I quickly realized that it is much too soft and for a fishing fly and seemed to lack durability. I just didn't liked its loose braid characteristics for a practical fly unless its varnished or coated with something like Aquaseal. Just my .2

I looked for nice sub and with what I found, I'll never look back.

Enter Fireline crystal 20lb braid. Its clear with whitish appearance just like the reel thing, its stiff, strong, and doesnt stretch. It tested much stronger than 20lb Maxima and seems to be very durable substitute for fishing or even display flies.

I think hatching gut worms is taking a bit much :Eyecrazy:
 
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