[ZachMatthews]

Hey guys-

Can't say enough great things about my new 1307 Expert Spey. Really good looking, well wrapped rod. Is that flora grade cork?! It's as nice as my Legend Ultras and coming close to my Winston. Very fine.

So, to all who recommended it, thanks.

I have lined it up on a Canyon Big Game 4, which seems to balance very well, actually. I am currently using a 6 weight Mastery Distance taper. Which leads to the big questions.

OK, straight out of the box I lined it and went out. I am a good one handed rod caster. I just used my usual elliptical casting stroke, throwing a backcast, and although it is weird I am was immediately able to handle 70 feet. I went out again a few minutes later because I was so excited and had no trouble hitting 80. I thought about what I'd read here about the lower hand being the power hand and the upper just being the pivot hand, this was a big help.

So, now, I assume this is what people mean when they say "standard overhead casting, correct?" And if I am to learn to actually Spey cast I will need to adapt to that sideways-D planting thing y'all talk about, right? *G*

Ok, questions:

Will I be able to continue using the Distance Taper for a while or do I need to get a spey line ASAP before I ruin my stroke forever?

Could anyone please recommend a good book with diagrams I can get for pretty cheap to pick up the actual spey cast? I know this is something I am not going to learn over night, but fortunately I love to cast.

I understand Rio's cassette with Simon Gainesworth is excellent. Will this duplicate the book's instruction or is it worth a second lesson at home? (I ask because I like to take the casting book with me to the river and I alas cannot lug my tv up there. Wife would kill me.)

Thanks again all, especially Juro, for the great advice. This is one hell of a rod.

Zach Matthews
[email protected]

 

[SSPey]

check out the casting videos on Dana's "speypages" website linked at the top - superb!!

 

[juro]

Zach -

Glad you like the new toy!

I would start with Derek Brown's video and Simon's Rio video as the initial video introductions. Find someone who can show you in person if you can.

My experiences, although yours might differ, is that you will need a good spey line to make the transition with that rod. You should get a Rio Windcutter 5/6 or a Hardy Mach I 8/9 spey line for that rod.

If I were to be crazy enough to try to walk you through it...

Take the head portion of the line and straighten it out in front of you on the water. Water is a must.

Raise the rod slowly to the 10-11 o'clock position, coming back to the firing position high alongside pointing to 1 oclock. Notice the line comes sliding toward you as you bring the rod back. Stop for a minute, or 5 or 10. The line will drop to the water. Whenever you want, do a roll cast. Great! That's a roll cast. Now for something very different - a spey cast.

Take the head portion of the line and straighten it out in front of you on the water. Water is a must.

Raise the rod slowly to the 10-11 o'clock position, making the line rise and move toward you and stop. As soon as you stop, the moving line will fall downward onto the water. This is very bad. In spey casting you can't stop like you can in roll casting, because you will need to move the line toward you until the moment you make the forward cast.

Let's try it again...
Raise the rod slowly to the 10-11 o'clock position, making the line rise and come toward you then at the moment the line feels it's lightest without slowing or stopping sweep the rod around into the firing position and stop abruptly. The rod should be angled about 60 degrees out and 60 degrees back in the 1 o'clock ready position.

This should, if you kept things continuous on the lift and sweep, send a d-loop backward and the end portion of the line and leader (called the anchor) to the water beside you and out about a rod length.

The concept is that an upside-down loop, similar to the one you used to make those 80 ft casts but inverted, is formed by this motion. The leader end should land lightly on the water, and like the overhand cast the loop should be full and directly opposite the forward casting direction. For starters, it won't be very narrow like the overhand, and shouldn't be. It looks like the shape of the nose-cone of an airplane where the lower fuselage just touches the water.

Sticking with the nosecone analogy, the anchor should be on the other side of the airplane from the tip of the rod, in other words the d-loop is tilted with the top on starboard side of the fuselage and the anchor on the port side. This reduces the amount of power you need to create a fully energized d-loop significantly and gives you more energy to stroke against on the forward cast. It also helps keep the fly out of your rear end

The rest of it is practicing the amount of power you put into the backward sweep to form a d-loop, steering that d-loop, and timing the forward stroke to coincide with the 'kiss' of the anchor on the water on the same side as the upper hand on the rod.

This is a basic switch cast.

Sure, I could have type 1000 times more words to try to be more descriptive but frankly, you need to watch Simon and Derek and find someone to meet on the water to really learn!

Good luck, maybe we can meet up one day.

Juro

 

[ZachMatthews]

Thanks a lot Juro. How is this different from...

OK Juro. That was really great. I am not trying to sound like I know what I am doing at all, but basically I have been using that very cast for years with my single handed rods. I simply call it a shooting roll, and I can throw about 70' with it with a normal 9' 5 weight rod. I pretty much have had to use it to load my Winston LTX 5 weight, which is very stiff. Standard roll casting never worked for me.

So this is a switch cast? I was throwing the line in an inverted loop last night with the Expert. I didn't have the water to mess with but the cast you describe isn't hard to adapt if you cast in the elliptical style, as I do. As a matter of fact I have been throwing an inverted loop for distance casting for a few months, because when the loop turns over it flips *up* and the rod loads like crazy and stays off the water.

Like I said, though, I didn't know this was a spey cast. I have a beginner's section attached to the website I admin. If you don't mind, would you please look at my roll casting/shooting roll page and let me know if what I have here is radically different from what you describe?

The direct address is: http://www.geocities.com/flyfishingtoday/rwr.htm

I really appreciate the heck out of the lesson, that was extremely useful in visualizing what I need to go do.

Zach

 

[juro]

Hey nice diagrams!

Yes, the shooting roll cast appears to be a switch cast in essence, you're obviously already tuned in and will pick this all up quickly I'd imagine.

Now it should be easy to go to the next level, which is incorporating a change of direction from the dangle to the new target.

From the dangle, do the slow lift to free the surface tension and before the momentum drops sweep the d-loop around in an accelerating circular motion and stop so that the energy coming off the rod is directed opposite the direction of the desired cast.

http://flyfishingforum.com/expertise/spey/singlespey.swf

Sounds easy, but it requires some practice to get everything to go just right. Coming upward into the firing position helps keep the d-loop elevated and out of the water. You should be a quick study having experience with dynamic light tension roll casts. Start with 45 degrees quartering down for the swing, and as you get comfortable push the envelope for more cross-stream directional change.

 

[ZachMatthews]

Yes! That's the kind of stuff I needed, this is all new to me. Thanks a ton, Juro. I am going to the river now to check this out.

Zach

 

[fredaevans]

Zack, for 'stick drawings' of spey casts ..

check out a web site called (or close to it) sexie loops. Spelling here is buggered, but if you 'google' the name of a spey cast you'll get the 'hit' you need.

If memory serves, several spey casts are covered on this web site.
fae

 

[juro]

Just one final reminder - these direction changes and other wonderful casts you'll soon learn (double spey, snap-t, snake roll, perry poke, etc) work dramatically better with a spey line suited for the rod.

The two I would highly recommend are the Rio Windcutter spey line in a 5/6 and the Hardy Mach I in 8/9 (it's lighter). I have in fact tried standard singlehander lines and was totally unimpressed whereas the above two were a dream to cast and even improved my casting of bigger rods due to the light-rod finesse factor.

 

[ZachMatthews]

Hey Juro-

Here's some follow up questions.

I went out and threw line at the river, which was up. Took about half an hour to get used to the rig with a nymph and weight and indicator hooked on, but within a couple hours I was turning the whole thing over every time at about 70'. This was entirely with the switch cast, though I confess it was still easier at times to let the rear loop uncurl out of the water and load the rod like a one-hander. This I understand renders spey's advantage of not needing backcast room useless, and I do intend to learn the other casts.

What about a MidSpey? Spey lines are expensive and for cost reasons I'd rather not get a line that I am going to use for only a few sessions. Can I learn the other maneuvers on the MidSpey? What kinds of sacrifices in distance and control would I make in using the Windcutter, and what advantages would that line give me during the learning process?

This rod was a blast to cast. Tons of fun, and makes fishing high water possible. I wasn't very focused on the fishing but if I had been, I feel confident I could have hooked up where before I'd have had to go home. Great stick.

Since it appears to be ok, I posted some pictures of my new rod at this address:

http://pub205.ezboard.com/fflyfishingtodayfrm7.showMessage?topicID=747.topic


If anyone has wondered what the graphite spacer on the 6 weight Expert looks like, here it is. I was surprised by the grade of cork as well, it appears to be flora. Is this correct? It is as nice as the cork on my Legend Ultra and every single wrap is excellent. I had likened this company to the TFO of Spey, and not to take anything away from TFO's great budget sticks, which are the best in the business for the price, but CND's quality control is even higher for the price range. (Granted, nothing TFO sells costs $265, which is the cheapest of the cheap in CND's line, but I still think the two are comparable.)


And if you'd care to see any of my other stick men casting diagrams (of which I am quite proud, thank you) here's the Beginner's section of our site:

http://www.geocities.com/flyfishingtoday/beginner.htm


Zach

 

[Hammer]

how do you spey cast exactly,wow,now, that's a metamerizm,not sure about the izm part of the spelling,and i've no idea about a MATCHING line,get out there and just go for a single spey,then work on the rest from there,actually, that's all ya' need as far as keeping the fly happenin',how much line can you carry,how fast is your stroke,body movement,reaction time,depth perception,hey ,have a bad day at work,kids ,wife ,car,freeway,,then three drifters parked where ya planned to fish????,,well ,it's no diff.from single handing it,you'll have diff. strokes depending on the day,anyway, get OUT THERE,relax and let er' happen,it'll HAPPEN,you'll turn a corner,and ,well,just GO,take several lines ,as you'll have no comparison of what the rod feels like bent, if you don't,,,HELLO,read the last line,,,several shops like the REDSHED rent lines,well,i'm sure you have fly lines ,you stated you've a two handed rod;RIO has a booklet in with their lines,any spey cast is a good one as long as you're fishing:chuckle:

 

[Andy Wren]

Paul Ardens Sexyloops

Fred has put you almost onto the site ,Sexyloops os one of the more interesting casting sites and is truly a world wide site ,there will be folks from all over some famous ,some who are just starting out . Its not a huge spey casting site ,this ones the best all round for that along with speypages .

 

[FlyFishAR]

Zach:

If a picture is worth a thousand words a video is worth a million. Try getting a copy of Simon's spey casting video. It is available through Rio's website or possibly at a local fly shop. Although, I'm not to sure how many fly shops in your area carry spey videos. A quick viewing of that video will save you tons of text reading. There are some pretty good clips on the spey pages as well.

The absolute best is to take a lesson though. You'd be suprised.

John

 

[Andy Wren]

Flyfish AR is spot on get a lesson , I got mine from Falkus over this side of the pond and Ive always been a much better caster with a twohander than with the singlehander since .
Agreat teacher gets you past the casting so that you can get out and fish .

 

[juro]

Zach -

Sorry I missed these until now...

Hey Juro-

Here's some follow up questions.

I went out and threw line at the river, which was up. Took about half an hour to get used to the rig with a nymph and weight and indicator hooked on, but within a couple hours I was turning the whole thing over every time at about 70'. This was entirely with the switch cast, though I confess it was still easier at times to let the rear loop uncurl out of the water and load the rod like a one-hander. This I understand renders spey's advantage of not needing backcast room useless, and I do intend to learn the other casts.

What about a MidSpey? Spey lines are expensive and for cost reasons I'd rather not get a line that I am going to use for only a few sessions. Can I learn the other maneuvers on the MidSpey? What kinds of sacrifices in distance and control would I make in using the Windcutter, and what advantages would that line give me during the learning process?

The midspey is an AWESOME all around line for spey casting but in truth the 6/7 is a bit heavy for this rod in my opinion. That line really is perfect for the Custom 7/8 13', but the grains on the 5/6 Windcutter are ideal for your 1306. If you fish sinktips, strip retrieve the fly, fish smaller streams or overhand cast often the windcutter would be the better choice.

If you decide to go with midspey, you will cast better without the whole head out of the guides due to grain weight.

Another choice is the Hardy Mach I in an 8/9 weight. Ryan over at our sponsor Kaufmanns sent one for me to try and I fell in love with it as a mid-length dry line for the 1306.

Both lines are excellent for the job.

This rod was a blast to cast. Tons of fun, and makes fishing high water possible. I wasn't very focused on the fishing but if I had been, I feel confident I could have hooked up where before I'd have had to go home. Great stick.

Since it appears to be ok, I posted some pictures of my new rod at this address:

http://pub205.ezboard.com/fflyfishingtodayfrm7.showMessage?topicID=747.topic


If anyone has wondered what the graphite spacer on the 6 weight Expert looks like, here it is. I was surprised by the grade of cork as well, it appears to be flora. Is this correct? It is as nice as the cork on my Legend Ultra and every single wrap is excellent. I had likened this company to the TFO of Spey, and not to take anything away from TFO's great budget sticks, which are the best in the business for the price, but CND's quality control is even higher for the price range. (Granted, nothing TFO sells costs $265, which is the cheapest of the cheap in CND's line, but I still think the two are comparable.)


And if you'd care to see any of my other stick men casting diagrams (of which I am quite proud, thank you) here's the Beginner's section of our site:

http://www.geocities.com/flyfishingtoday/beginner.htm


Zach

KEWL! Best of luck with your spey casting adventures. Simons video and Derek Brown's videos are my two fav's. There is nothing that can even come close to personal instruction though IMHO.