...on the rod design, the line design, the rod and line maker...and ultimately personal preference. An example:
I recently cast one of the newer lines rated an 8/9 on 3 different rods with 3 different actions, what would be classified as medium, medium/fast and fast. This line loaded each of these rods reasonably well at a variety of distances, but the rods were rated 9/10 and 10/11. I personally liked this "lighter" line on the faster action 10/11, a fast action rod rated two dual line sizes above the actual ratiing of the line itself. I'm completely confident that others would disagree with me on this and keep the line strung on 8 or 9 weight rods.
Since there is no universal rating system for two handers all we can do is try various combinations and see what we like the best.
"Since there is no universal rating system for two handers all we can do is try various combinations and see what we like the best."
Remember a post somewhere where SA was trying to address this issue. But as you've so eloquently stated buying new lines can be an expensive crap shoot. I've got three lines (MidSpey, Cortland staged DT and a TT) that still have me scratching my head ... not to mention being down $100+++ some bucks for the three of them. Others, (as an example I've got three versions of the Sage 9wt spey) "the" line on one 'over loads the rod,' on a 'faster version' of the same rod it's a rocket launcher.
I guess this is why folks get so worked up about a specific line that "works well" for them.
Fred, you make my point for the thread I started on people turning off spey. I know several chaps who own spey gear and don't fish it for the simple reason that they never get around to properly matching rod with line. The process of trying to fish for three or four days with one of these mismatched sets is off putting to say the least.
The problem gets compounded when the rods owner buys one or two more lines and then finds that they don't really cast that well either. As you pointed out, by this time he is likely out a lot of cash.
Rod manufacturers should offer optimum lined reccomendations with their rods. It would go a long way towards solving this problem.
The problem is the rod is loaded depending how much line you have out. Last week I was fishing the Brora which in low water conditions, like it was last week is very narrow. I was fishing with my 13 ft B&W which usually blasts out the Lee Wulff 8/9 for miles. On Thursday there was a strong easterly wind and I could make nothing of it. I changed to the Sage 131/2 ft rated 7 it was perfect casting the short distance I required. The B&W was redeployed using a 11 rated shooting head.
Mind you I am a tackle junkie, I could probably boast more rods and reels than Fred.
some tackle makers have rated their rods and lines--RIO is a notable example of this. But it can be tough. The best thing to do is to get together with others (such as at a Spey Clave) or take a course or attend a clinic where there are a lot of lines floating around, and then try everything you can get your hands on. Talk to your tackle dealer about setting something like this up.
BeBop, it looks like you live in the Lower Mainland. If you and your friends want to get together for a few hours and try a bunch of lines on your rods I have dozens. Drop me a note.
Now if you'll excuse me I have to go and overhaul my light saber...
I always thought the same thing - overline faster rods to achieve acceptable speycasting performance. Until last weekend.
I've owned a 15' 10wt T&T for a number of years. Fished 10-11-12 WindCutters, 10/11 and 11/12 TriangleTaper Speys, and even a 10/11 Accelerator on it. The rod cast them all without a complaint, but I never got the really tight loops or performance I thought that rod should be capable of.
Then this last weekend I was trying rod/line combos with Ryan Petzold on the upper Skykomish and decided I'd try an 8/9 MidSpey on this rod. It cast unbelievably well. I know that the 9/10 MidSpey is the recommended line for this rod, but even so casting the 8/9 was an eye-opening experience. The tight loops I knew the rod was capable of were finally appearing!
I also tried the heavier lines - TT Spey 10/11 and such so as to confirm that I wasn't just having an exceptional casting day. In fact, Ryan tried this same combo and it was the inspiration of his earlier "Love or Lust" post.
Then I tried Ryan's Sage 9141 - supposedly a "European" fast-action rod. He was originally fishing the 8/9wt MidSpey on it (which felt overloaded to me) and the 9-10-11 WindCutter (also overloaded). So I pulled out a Wulff Triangle Taper Spey 8/9wt and that was the ticket!! I wasn't really impressed with that rod till I tried that line on it- now I love it!!
And it's not just me - Ryan agreed that the seemingly underlined combos of the 9141 and 8/9wt line and the T&T 10wt with the 8/9wt MidSpey were definitely our favorites.
I'm not suggesting that we all make a practice of underlining our faster-action rods. This is just a caution against applying a universal "Overline Faster Action Spey Rods" rule. Nothing takes the place of actually trying the line on the rod. And don't be afraid to try above/below the manufacturer's recommended weights!:devil:
The pits is working on Joan's compter. Damn, the keyboard is from hell. How many back spaces does it take to post a message... ask her when she gets back on the 24th..... for a couple of weeks. then gone again for ......
Anybody got a suggestion???? Hair on the palm..
Never mind. :>(
Thanks, and no thanks. I ask a simple question seeking clarity in a chalky stream and what...?
Dana - agreed, Kudos to RIO for their charts as a starting point. Also, the clave thing. I recently attended one and found this to be one of the many strengths in such a gathering; the collaboration between spey casters, peer to peer, and caster to manufacturers' reps. And it doesn't hurt to have an especially qualified set of demonstrators to "bench mark" your rod for you. This should make the fine tuning easier.
But then someone kicked over the can...
Now I have to worry about other variables? Or are we now talking Voodoo rods, with a mind of their own? I can buy the environmental noise as it has always been a part of casting the fly, but not the hocus pocus. Besides, I just gave away 35-plus chickens which seriously diminishes my sacrificial pool.
In other words, there ain't no generalities? Which means we are all mostly tracking to the "poor house" as we cough up the last of Junior's college fund for the "newest line" which promises the tightest of loops, blah, blah, blah.
Which gets us to BeBop's post, especially the quitting part.
...and you know there is an upside to the downside he noted. As more and more spey casters quit, there will be plenty of used rods up on ebay.:devil:
WS, use the same general thought as a single hander. Two handers are longer versions, the questions have not changed. I recall my old RPL Sage 590 everyone said it is really a 6wt and compared to my 590LL it is. I believe you will see more line manufactures providing guidance like that Simon has provided on the RIO site.
Now lets pick up th ecan and ask a more specific question what rod are you looking to line? long or short belly?
Thanks. Although I didn't intend to go there, the other posts destroying my notion of generalities does bring me to the heart of the matter - my green blank Sage 9140-4 with the Windcutter 8-9-10. I have not met with any appreciable success spey casting this line/rod combination. RIO's site suggests that I should start with a lighter line (7-8-9) yet the fly shop owner firmly went the other way (a knowlegeable Skagit spey caster).
This deference combined with the many members' posts concerning rod lining has, over time, suggested my original post's premise.
I now have an additional spey rod, an Orvis 14' 9 wt., of a more noticable stiffness which others (Simon G., Steve Choate, and Way Yin) suggested will take the 8-9-10 WC. Since the Sage was characterized as a moderate action and RIO suggested a lighter line, I thought I might have an answer to my dilemma. Those generalities.
Hey, I'm learning and my learning curve has shown some serious spiral effects! The Sage will be my main rod for fishing sinktips and I need to become more proficient (i.e., less ducking) when casting.:chuckle: Any strong feelings on whether or not I should purchase the 7-8-9 WC for the Sage and use it until I'm more proficient?
This can be confusing but for what its worth, here is my advice. First off, I think you might not be reading the Rio recommendations correctly.
The two Windcutter line choices I see for the 9140-4 are the 8/9/10 (A) and the 9-10-11 (B). The A designation is for accomplished casters and those who like the feel of a faster action rod. The B designation is for beginning and moderate casters and those that like the rod to flex on the cast. When a person is learning, feeling the rod load helps you learn when to apply power.
I would NOT go down in line weight. This will only complicate matters.
Now the 9140 has never been a fast action rod. Your green blank is stiffer than the old brown blanks but still it is not a European action by any means. That is bad as it is a good rod to learn on.
Having said all that, I think you would be best served to either stick with the 8-9-10 until you get your timing down or if you can afford it, a better solution might be to pony up the $$ for the 9-10-11 and fish it for a year or so. When you felt your casting had progressed to where you were comfortable, you could then switch to the 8-9-10.
I would not purchase the whole tips version again. You can save yourself some bucks by getting a floater and then simply cutting it back and looping on the tips you already have for the 8-9-10.
Thanks, Sinktip for clarifing. Yes indeed to my error at RIO. I recalled the data once you pointed it out and realized I had taken the forum members' posts on adapting my 7 wt. singlehander to a sinktip system with a 6 wt. type 6 sinktip and superimposed that info with my assumptions/understanding on line loading. Your suggestions worked well for that rod/line combination and I'm sure this new info will prove just as solid.
Steven, another suggestion for that particular rod
is the new SA xlt 8/9. I've got both the WC's mentioned above and the 8-9-10 is an excellent line on this rod .... if you intend to 'shoot line' with your casts. If you want a long head/minimal shooting then the SA would/could be the better match up.
For 'new casters' the WC is an excellent 'learning line,' but I think you may find you will want to 'move on' rather quickly.
What I would really like is to be able to cast heavy sinktips 30 ft. further than I can with my single hander. My shooting of line was that which one shoots when double hauling; I did shoot some with the single hander this weekend on the NF Stillaquamish and found it kinda cool. Simply don't need to shoot to the moon.
Yeah, the guys at the Clave keyed me on the XLT - the 8-9 was right for both of my rods, an economy I like. Likewise the WC 8-9-10, which I have.
Hey, I'm sure to eventually get the XLT 8-9 after watching the distances achieved by Way Yin and LongCastSteve using my Orvis addition. Frankly, I'm seeing the Orvis and XLT combination in the future AFTER the casting of heavy sinktips at medium distances is mastered. ...which is not to say that the XLT is not a good candidate for sinktip fishing but, please, I am already swamped with what's going.
Truth is I was mixing apples and oranges. Spey line rating/loading info being overlaid with sinktip stuff. Just need time to assimilate the info from Sinktip; viewing the theoretical with its mechanical application. Fortunately, I have all summer to work on this spey casting. it's Project #1. Gonna keep the single hander close, though, just in case.
WS, revisiting old advice on the board for a simple,
'cheap' tip system is to take a DT line 2 line sizes over your rated rod weight, cut in half (so you have a spare) put a kevlar loop at the 'fat end' and use heads rated for your rod weight. With this rod you could also build your own tip system using lead core 13 line. It's 13 grains a foot so a 20ísh foot segment will give you a two hundred grain head.
The REO heads (big boys) are at 26 feet and available in several weights. 26' is a bit long for a 14' rod but I use them all the time.
A forum community dedicated to Spey casting, fishing, flies, and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about trails, licenses, fishing, game laws, styles, reviews, optics, accessories, classifieds, and more!