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Hello Flyrodders.

Please help me with this one: How do I safely connect 30 lbs gel spun poly backing to my flylines?

My worry is that with a loop-to-loop connection the backing-loop might cut through the dacron/nylon-loop at the end of the flyline.
Suggestions welcome!

If a loop is used - which knot are used to make it?

This is one enjoyable site - feeds dreams while sleet and frost is the daily menu.
Thanks to everbody involved in keeping it going.

sar
 

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EAT IT!!!
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Welcome!!

I have always albright Knotted gelspun to the Flyline. It works well with 7-8 wraps. If you are leary of it coming undone, you can always zap a gap the knot. Just be sure that the Zap- A-Gap is COMPLETELY dry before you start reeling:hehe: Don't ask me why I would point this out:whoa: Somethings you learn the hard way.

If you want to make a strong loop to loop connection ( I am highly skeptical that the gelspun loop would cut the flyline, but in the spirit of honesty I haven't tried this with gelspun) I would bimini twist the backing (or if you are lazy a triple surgeons is pretty strong) and to loop the fly line I always fold the line over to form a loop and put 3 nail knots of 6 turns of 10lb Maxima to hold the loop. Two nail knots is probably fine. I make this loop very small and the backing loop large enough to fit over the reel or a line spool. Ever fly line I own is knotted to backing in this way.

There are probably about 700 ways to do this, 698 of them being very fuctional, but this is what works for me.
 

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Indicators Anonymous
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Dr. Swing said:
If you want to make a strong loop to loop connection ( I am highly skeptical that the gelspun loop would cut the flyline, but in the spirit of honesty I haven't tried this with gelspun) I would bimini twist the backing (or if you are lazy a triple surgeons is pretty strong) and to loop the fly line I always fold the line over to form a loop and put 3 nail knots of 6 turns of 10lb Maxima to hold the loop. Two nail knots is probably fine. I make this loop very small and the backing loop large enough to fit over the reel or a line spool. Ever fly line I own is knotted to backing in this way.
:tsk_tsk: you will guarentee a lost flyline with that method...#30 gelspun will slice through a nice new flyline like butta'
 

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Gel spun to line

I've used a saltwater trick to make a loop-to-loop connection. Thread the gel spun through a short (1/2 inch or less) section of fly tying Larva Lace or similar tubing before forming the loop in the gel spun. When connecting the loops, just make sure the portion of the gel spun loop that's sheathed in the Larva Lace (the end of the loop) makes the contact with the fly line loop. I've used it in bluewater lines for sailfish and yellowfin tuna without problem.

I'm sure an Albright would work just as well, but not as easy to change lines.
 

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Using GSP

Geoff Wilson's book on knots using superbraid [GSP] is a must, IMHO. It is published by Amato Books. See amatobooks.com.

Wilson is an Aussie salt water fisherman who is the #1 knot author in the world. Salt water fishermen chase immense fish and absolutely must have secure knots.

According to Wilson many conventional knots are not satisfactory with GSP, such as the arbor knot, the spider hitch and double loops not formed with bimini twists. If you do not get Wilson's book, it would be wise to test any knot system you devise.

Compared to salt water monsters, the steelhead and salmon we pursue are puny, so lack of perfection with our GSP knots is probably acceptable, if one is brave.

NF16 is correct that a simple loop to loop connection is unsatisfactory.

Loop your fly line [my preference is a large loop that will fit over the largest reel] and secure with nail knots per Dr. Swing.

Take the bimini twisted GSP and loop to the fly line with a cats paw. A cats paw is a series of loops formed by repeatedly placing the reel with GSP through the fly line loop, giving several places of grip.
 

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Here is a trick I learned from a guy at Western Filaments (TUF Line) about working with superbraids and regular hollow braids like dacron.

You can obtain a 100% splice with these two materials by threading 4-5 inches of superbraid into a 2 ft section of regular hollow dacron backing (use your bobbin threader or a special dacron splicing hook). Tie a figure-8 knot LOOSELY into the two-ply section and cheat the knot as close to the cut end of the dacron as possible before tightening it to "lock" one end of the dacron. The rest of the dacron will grip the superbraid in the splice like a Chinese finger-cuff. Don't worry about the strength of the figure-8... the unknotted strength of the 2-ply section is the combined strength of your braids.... you could tie an overhand knot in it and lose 50% strength and still have a 100% splice. The dacron acts as a "coating" to prevent the superbraid from cutting into itself.

Once you have made this splice, simply fashion a loop in the free end of dacron with your threader or splicing hook. Now you can loop-loop the dacron to the end of your flyline with confidence. Or if you prefer, you can go with an Albright for that connection. I prefer loop-loop because it is less bulky and goes thru the guides easier.
 
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The first thing I would do is move up to 50# GSP. When used as backing 30# is simply too small in diameter to be safe. Not only will it slice right through that loop, it will slice right through your fingers. I've always recommended at least 50# GSP even on trout reels. That will also help the problem with loops. I always use a bimini that has more than fifty twists in it. Then I double the loop that you formed and then tie a triple surgeon's. For some reason the double loop of GSP doesn't seem to cut the flyline loop like a single loop does. Actually, for my bluewater work I use 50# braided loops on the end of the flyline, but I've had no trouble with double-looped GSP cutting through those, either. Trust me, you won't regret using 50# GSP. It's still way thinner than even 20# micron.
 

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EAT IT!!!
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NrthFrk16 said:
:tsk_tsk: you will guarentee a lost flyline with that method...#30 gelspun will slice through a nice new flyline like butta'
Thanks NrthFrk. Like I said, I have always albrighted the stuff, but it is good to know that the standard loop to loops won't work.
 
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I think the pic is self explanatory. You stuff your backing line through a piece of gudebrod butt leader braided mono. I suggest a line heavier that 30lb, bit if thats what you have use 20lb mono braid. The trick is to insert a mono loop into the braid first to use in completing the splice. Once you have got it set up use one drop of Loctite 406 CA glue in the middle of the splice. Use a small drop to reduce any chance of a long stiff bit of line. The 406 is thin and wicks into the braid and glues it to the monofilament nylon. Its 100%. You should put a flex glue on the area where the gsp goes into the braided mono. This system works and is very easy to produce. You do the same thing on the end of the fly line, just take off about 6 inches of the outer leaving the core ands stuff the core up the braided mono. Do a coaxial splice and glue it. But be sure you pull enough line through the mono braid to insert the fly line into the braid, then you glue both the splice and the mono braid to the fly line. If you get the idea. It is also 100% and is very neat. Cheers Max
 

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loco alto!
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I've been following GSP related threads on Dan Blanton's board, and Max clearly has this down to a science. Thanks for the photo.

I just wish the Loctite 406 was a little less expensive. CA glues have a limited lifetime in the bottle before they dry out or clog, and need to be replaced. A bottle every 2 months is 6 per year, which adds up fast at $15-$20 a bottle.

A 70 turn bimini works, with a surgeons loop in the doubled bimini end. However, as a bimini amateur, I find it hard to get consistently tight bimini coils in 70 turns of GSP. The wraps are always a bit spaced around the core, no matter how much I practice. It seems like it could loosen??

fishNphysician's suggestion is one that I have not heard. I just tried it and it's as easy as pie. Hopefully someone will test this with a machine, to evaluate the field strength.

This is a favorite topic of mine!
 

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loco alto!
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After few qualitative tests using 50 lb powerpro and my patented "Grunt-o-meter" ®, it seems that a bimini-surgeon loop is stronger than fishNphysician's dacron loop. Both may be stronger than I'll ever need, but you never know...
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Loops on gelspun....

Thank you so much everybody - so far!
Looks like I was not the only one wondering.
Will do some testing my self, and look forward to see further development.

Get grabbed!

S. A.
 

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loco alto!
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fishNphysician -

In 3 trials the GSP broke right at the figure 8 knot every time.

Using the "Grunt-o-meter" ®, I estimate that the bimini-surgeon combination is almost twice as strong. It breaks at the triple surgeon junction in the doubled bimini loop. Even my biminis held fast every time
 

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loco alto

Wow... not good news! The figure-8 in the GSP must obviously still be cutting into itself, even with the dacron "sheath" as protection.... what pound-test GSP and dacron did you splice together?
 

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loco alto!
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that's what I'm thinking. I used 50 lb powerpro GSP and 30 or 35 lb dacron
 
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Look guys there are a few things you should know about GsP braid.
Firstly Gel Spun Polyethylene is a stiff product, it has a modulus about halfway beteen E glass and carbon fibre, which means it's stiff and has a critical radius, in other words bend it far enough and it fractures. It's slippery and has a knot strength between 48% for a Spider Hitch and about 90% for a very good Bimini. In other words it will always break in the knot regardless of who ties the knot.
My comment on this is that "Man cannot alter what God, him/her up there, and DSM HPF, the inventors, provide". You might be able to compensate for the bad knot strength but beat it. not likely. So thats why the coaxial loop appeared. It isn't a knot and is 100%.
A few other things. If you get a length of say, 20 gsp braid and insert it one, just one, inch into 25lb braided mono and glue it with one drop of 406 and let it cure properly you will break the line before the glued joint fails. Try it.
Loctite 406 should be used with a needle applicator and kept in the fridge. That lengethens life considerably.
But nothing is forever and if you keep an eye on the splices and replace them regularly, in my case I'm lazy and it never happens, well about every few years, it will be great.
If you use Biminis another little quirky thing appears. Its called runner strike in which the bimini belts the runners while it goes backwards and fowards through the guides. That fractures fibres, which reduces the b/s of the connection.
I'm a bit picky, I like reels without holes in the spools, and if they have holes I run my fingers over the inside of the spool to check the hole edges. I've been known to thread GsP line through holes in reel spools, in shops, and give it the hefty to and fro treatment to see what the hole edges are like. Gets some funny responses from the guys selling the gear. One very high priced and much touted reel blew the GsP line to bits in two pulls. Another one almost removed my fingerprints. Pays to check holes if you are using GSP braid backing. Cheers Max
 
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