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Hi middlecalf,
Hardy's got hold of a grant vibration and were trying to work out the details of the rod while quizzing "Jock Scott", he later wrote to Alexander Grant and told him, they had a good laugh about it, no other maker could make the rod apart from Playfair as the patent made it impossible for anyone else to copy, including Alexander who later on made a few specials for Jock Scott ect.
Playfair would defend the patent as it was the biggest selling Rod in Euroland, Charles Playfair was not the kinda guy to let anyone try and copy the patent, other rods were pretty poorly made and weighted more with all the brass where they normally snapped.
 

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Discussion Starter · #82 · (Edited)
'Jock Scott' was the pen name of one Douglas George Ferris Rudd (1897- 1983) who was also a devotee of fishing artificial lures- one of his books was 'Spinning'. He was to collaborate with Hardy's in 1938 when the Hardy 'Jock Scott' rod and reel bait-casting set came along, a very novel concept to English anglers at the time. Expensive and complex reels to make by hand, production ended in 1953.

Malcolm

Water Wood Fishing reel Lake Bicycle part


Wood Camera accessory Hardwood Auto part Cameras & optics
 

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Hey thanks for posting that vid Bruce @fisshman26 of linespeedjedi, that’s good stuff (his stroke is so smooth). I had to laugh (at myself) thinking about my one and only competition casting (attempt). It was at Poppy’s clave a few years back. I was talked into competing by a “friend” who I think wanted someone else to be the worse caster, not him 😂. I qualified for worse for sure. I’d spent about 10 casts with a SA Distance Spey (74ft head) on a 15-ft non-comp Sage rod and thought no problem, I should be able to hit 150ft or so. Of course that’s the starting distance for most of you guys who compete regularly. Well, I made it to 105ft on a right-hand single spey (easiest cast), and decided I didn’t need to waste Poppy’s time anymore nor continue to embarrass myself. I helped my friend out though, he did beat me in distance so I was the worst. No trophy however for that. I drank his scotch that night 😈 !
 

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Gaelforce
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Hey thanks for posting that vid Bruce @fisshman26 of linespeedjedi, that’s good stuff (his stroke is so smooth). I had to laugh (at myself) thinking about my one and only competition casting (attempt). It was at Poppy’s clave a few years back. I was talked into competing by a “friend” who I think wanted someone else to be the worse caster, not him 😂. I qualified for worse for sure. I’d spent about 10 casts with a SA Distance Spey (74ft head) on a 15-ft non-comp Sage rod and thought no problem, I should be able to hit 150ft or so. Of course that’s the starting distance for most of you guys who compete regularly. Well, I made it to 105ft on a right-hand single spey (easiest cast), and decided I didn’t need to waste Poppy’s time anymore nor continue to embarrass myself. I helped my friend out though, he did beat me in distance so I was the worst. No trophy however for that. I drank his scotch that night 😈 !
Thats awesome but everyone is shocked even at the highest level their first time dont let it stop you from trying again if redneckorama ever happens again
 
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Gaelforce
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gordon ,
did all of grant's rods have drop down rings ?
he was famous for saying if you want to shoot get a gun so i would say yes he only used drop rings
 
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he was famous for saying if you want to shoot get a gun so i would say yes he only used drop rings
Ha! Never heard that! I know you spend a hell of a lot of time on the water Bruce, have you swung up a fish on your Clan? I’d love to pick your brain about a guide trip involving some wood rods and traditional flies. If the border remains open and all.
Nick
 

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Still interested in seeing video as you sound like you can really huck it Jim maybe you can get some at the clave, If I ever head that way again it will be to fish.
Competition casts are Actually measured so way more interesting than just saying oh I caught this fish at 165 ft as an example and going by the length of your line is Not a good way to measure a cast as there are variables such as running line not being completely straight and losing easily 10% or more and highly suggest looking and this video on YouTube
Sounds like you have a Partridge line btw and there are no newer models as Carron really does not exist other than old new stock but you might be referring the next gen lines.
I have owned and fished Carron , B&W, and Gaelforce 18 ft rods and while they are fun they are nowhere as effective as a good 16ft rod for distance because of the line speed that can be generated over a 18ft rod and if you look at my post in the 16ft thread you will read the same, it was a consensus between Gerard, Ruairi and myself on this matter.
Well...I don’t disagree about the accuracy of measurements in tournaments, but I can cast a long straight line unless it’s too windy. Fortunately it was calm that afternoon and the “money cast”actually pulled the last few wraps of running line off the reel exposing the backing. I watched the loop,line and the leader unfold inline and touch down on target, an eddy on a current seam which I had triangulated minutes earlier as I’d seen this Springer flash behind my vintage size I white winged Ackroyd without getting stung. I didn’t see the fly land but this buck did and seconds later, erupted out the water and hooked himself. The line and leader were definitely straight then but lets agree the cast was approximately 165 feet as I couldn’t see how straight the tippet and fly on the 20 foot leader landed. This cast may not have even placed in a tournament but it was pretty exciting when I got to handle this silver trophy.
This is my own personal best F&FOff spey casting & fishing hookup but I hope to break it with a newer Carron Tournament Line which have a longer running line.
I also fish with 16 and 17 footers and I certainly agree that they are awesome casting instruments as well. I do favour the 17 and 18 footers for their added length that can mend and elevate more line above the surface currents while controlling and leading your fly through broken water way out there.

You all should consider attending the Restigouche Clave here. Besides needing some volunteers to help or demonstrate casting techniques, we are scheduling it in Sept/Oct to coincide with the fall run of salmon and sea trout. There are also many nearby Gaspe, and New Brunswick Rivers as well as the Margaree in Cape Breton that you can fish after attending.i

Hope to see you on Home Pool, where I caught this Springer, at the Restigouche River Lodge....Jim
Water Cloud Sky Plant Ecoregion
 

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Gaelforce
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Well...I don’t disagree about the accuracy of measurements in tournaments, but I can cast a long straight line unless it’s too windy. Fortunately it was calm that afternoon and the “money cast”actually pulled the last few wraps of running line off the reel exposing the backing. I watched the loop,line and the leader unfold inline and touch down on target, an eddy on a current seam which I had triangulated minutes earlier as I’d seen this Springer flash behind my vintage size I white winged Ackroyd without getting stung. I didn’t see the fly land but this buck did and seconds later, erupted out the water and hooked himself. The line and leader were definitely straight then but lets agree the cast was approximately 165 feet as I couldn’t see how straight the tippet and fly on the 20 foot leader landed. This cast may not have even placed in a tournament but it was pretty exciting when I got to handle this silver trophy.
This is my own personal best F&FOff spey casting & fishing hookup but I hope to break it with a newer Carron Tournament Line which have a longer running line.
I also fish with 16 and 17 footers and I certainly agree that they are awesome casting instruments as well. I do favour the 17 and 18 footers for their added length that can mend and elevate more line above the surface currents while controlling and leading your fly through broken water way out there.

You all should consider attending the Restigouche Clave here. Besides needing some volunteers to help or demonstrate casting techniques, we are scheduling it in Sept/Oct to coincide with the fall run of salmon and sea trout. There are also many nearby Gaspe, and New Brunswick Rivers as well as the Margaree in Cape Breton that you can fish after attending.i

Hope to see you on Home Pool, where I caught this Springer, at the Restigouche River Lodge....Jim View attachment 392229
amazing story Jim, congrats on the fish
Like I already said in the other thread 165 is a hell of a long way even with a actual modern comp line and comp rod and ideal conditions in a controlled environment but hey you will never really know unless you have a comp at your clave will ya 🤓 or at the very least set out some measured buoys just for fun.
cheers from the Upper Columbia
Water Cloud Sky Plant Water resources
 

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Hi Jim, I would like to congratulate you catching such a fine fish on wonderful long cast. As you know, 165’ is quite doable with a competent rod from 16‘ to 18’. Like you I frequently use long rods and I get my max distance with a 17’ over a 16’ rod. I‘m using modern rods that are light in hand and easy to use all day without tiring. It’s very gratifying when one is able to get a long distance hookup and landing the fish is a bonus! CONGRATULATIONS on a fine job.

Gene Oswald
Bruce and Walker North America
 

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i would suspect that the d-down rings used as guides are somewhat integral to grant's casting . otherwise , why bother .? anybody making d-down rings these days ?
 

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i would suspect that the d-down rings used as guides are somewhat integral to grant's casting . otherwise , why bother .? anybody making d-down rings these days ?
I believe the rings were to keep tension on the line during the cast, but as to how much difference it will make on distance is likely small. There's a chart on F&FO of the expected distance for different sized rods and they are normal distances (especially for the shorter rods) - 32yds for 13' rod, with 3yds increase for each foot of rod.
For me it's casting a rod (albeit a Playfair one, not Grant's originals), a continuous taper silk line (which a maker I have contacted is commissioned to do), with a Planet Cast (which I hope to learn), is what I want to experience. The real deal can never be truly experienced since the only rods that exist are priceless artefacts which should not be risked, and the specifications of the line we don't actually have.
If we had all the information to be able to make a new Grant Vibration from his instructions and also one of his lines then this could be possibly achieved and a great experiment, but it would still be debateable whether it was anything like a real one or if you could make use of it like Grant did. I am sure I will enjoy this/these rods very much, but I would never give up any of my bamboo speys (or remaining glass, or graphite rods either).
 

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I agree with you Steve . Kinda sums up the way I look at this as well . Still … why would someone as smart as grant put an unusual guide setup unless it was integral to the cast ? Anyone have photos of drop down ring guides ? I would bet my jeweler friend could make them .
 

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Discussion Starter · #94 ·
Jim, there is a picture of one of the drop style rings in the magazine article I posted on Grant, should be easy to make, unlike a greenheart rod itself..
Malcolm
 

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When it came to the Greenheart rods Alexander even then was struggling to get good quality Greenheart, there was lots of it still around but the quality was not the same and he struggled to make the rods he wanted within a few years.
Playfair used greenheart Alexander would reject but he was done with it so didn't bother, he was already back working on Musical instruments.
 

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Has anyone actually seen or have a copy of Grant’s patent(s)? I’ve done some online searching but haven’t found anything. And I’m not sure if we’re talking a patent or several patents. Just curious. (I also can’t find the trademark filing for Farlow’s Holdfast logo, but I haven’t physical searched the UK historical paper records 😂).
 

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Has anyone actually seen or have a copy of Grant’s patent(s)? I’ve done some online searching but haven’t found anything. And I’m not sure if we’re talking a patent or several patents. Just curious. (I also can’t find the trademark filing for Farlow’s Holdfast logo, but I haven’t physical searched the UK historical paper records 😂).
Are you referring to this? Letter to Grant from Messrs Johnsons, Patent Agents, 2 May 1898
 

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When it came to the Greenheart rods Alexander even then was struggling to get good quality Greenheart, there was lots of it still around but the quality was not the same and he struggled to make the rods he wanted within a few years.
Playfair used greenheart Alexander would reject but he was done with it so didn't bother, he was already back working on Musical instruments.
Let's make some Good Vibrations! :LOL: Greenheart Wood - Cut to Size
How about 4" x 4" and 21' long? ;)
 

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Malcolm , Gordon , thanks for the picture of the rings .
 
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