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Would you be better off with a short head fishing the beach, with a long 14' rod OH casting. If you are new to OH 2hand rods, and are not good at casting yet
flyline/short or long head for fishing beach
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It's about the fishing, not the casting. A few things:
- 14' is too long (been there) so look at 11' to 12'.
- fish hit close in so we want a line that we can strip in close and cast out there without loads of false casts - in other words a short line
- we're chucking weighted clousers that need mass and turnover in our lines, which is not the strength of long lines
- intermediate lines are the big fish producers and there aren't a lot of those available in long lines.
Something that might help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kn-xUYwtRc
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So where would I be using a 14 ft. 12wt rod, in calm water and up in the river
J
JR SPEY
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My experience is somewhat limited, but I have spent quite a bit of time doing two handed overhead casting on the beaches and surf of Cape Cod. I find that the OBS sort of line works best with a single-handed rod and the standard OB, or the couple of equivalent lines out there, is best for the two-handed. The only time I changed that belief was when I had a high dune behind me, then having a shorter head helped. There's no reason a long-head (37' or so) can't be pulled just as far into the rod as a 30' head IF you're using an integrated line like the Outbounds, 40+ Beach Line (my favorite but now discontinued,) or the new Serum from Beulah. It takes just a bit more work to get the longer head back out for a re-cast, but after a bit of practice that's just not an issue, at least for me. I also chuck weighted Clousers, but I don't use a ton of weight on them either. If you need that much weight that could make a difference. With two-handed overcast casting there should be NO false casts, just a series (2 or maybe 3) of roll casts to get the line out of the rod guides and onto the surface. Everyone I've seen fishing two-handed on the Cape that was false casting ended up going nowhere. Four and five false casts and then putting the fly out 35' at most. It was almost comical and there were quite a few guys struggling with that. Roll cast, roll cast, backcast, forward cast. That's it. With the right setup 100' is easy.
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Bingo. The 40+ Beach Line is my favourite as well, though I don't consider it to be a long line relative to the 55'-65' distance lines out there. These distance lines were my frame of reference for the OP's 'long line'.
A roll or Spey cast into the overhead cast is the way to go. I only use one false cast if there was something about the pickup that I didn't like. The 40+ lines are exceptionally good at Spey or roll casting so often only one is needed to get things rolling.
I demonstrate some alternatives in this video including the single false cast to work more line out when the initial roll cast didn't do the job. In the Double Spey, I'm slipping line into the D-Loop to work the head out of the guides then use either a water load or I'll keep the forward Spey cast aerialized, then into the overhead cast. Either way, no false cast. It's an old video done with a very basic camera, but it shows enough. Those casts look like low effort affairs, but they're going a long way.
The video was meant to be a demonstration of various casting options, but in my fishing I rarely use a false cast even though I show it here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPjW4snYbGo
With long rod line can and should be longer! When false casting longer line the line loop straightening lasts longer so there is more time to do proper Drift to last back cast which is very important element in SW fly fishing where line is usually shot to lengthen cast.
Shorter line is easier to handle so fishing becomes easier but casting range is also reduced. If you are willing to use 14 ft rod I recommend at least 35ft line head and perhaps 40 ft gives best overall performance.
False casting should be limited but I recommend that the back cast before shoot is as good as possible so I usually do at least lift to back cast or a Switch Cast, forward false cast, back cast where I Drift and launch cast.
What is the 14 ft 12 wt rod you have?
Esa
Shorter line is easier to handle so fishing becomes easier but casting range is also reduced. If you are willing to use 14 ft rod I recommend at least 35ft line head and perhaps 40 ft gives best overall performance.
False casting should be limited but I recommend that the back cast before shoot is as good as possible so I usually do at least lift to back cast or a Switch Cast, forward false cast, back cast where I Drift and launch cast.
What is the 14 ft 12 wt rod you have?
Esa
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I bought a Anglers Roost rod . , This is my first 2HR , so I can't compare it to others and there are not a lot of these rods out there I know it's cheep, but it has a lot of backbone. I'ts me . not the rod. I fish in calm water most of the time. nothing big. If I go on the beach it's on a calm day. Some say use a long head ,other short. That's why I ask. I use a 40 now, but I know I can't use a 50 or 55 head. Fishing for Stripers on the beach, the bass can be close , right in the wash. ???
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Which is why 40' is about the longest I would go. Too much of a fiddle working the head out after stripping it all the way in. All of my heads for beach fishing are only 35' for this reason alone.
For those who have never fished for stripers, they can hit a fly that's right in the foamy, skinny water of a wave washing the beach. I had just landed a really nice bass and my buddy walked over to discuss it. While we were chatting, my fly was being washed about in this really skinny, white foamy water when a 15" schoolie sucked it in.
A cast has to be fished right up until there's almost no water left to swim a fly. Long lines need not apply.
When line head is short and heavy and front taper is short the line loop straightens so aggressively that line tip easily overshoots. To lessen this good power control is important especially when "classic" overhead casting is done where rod tip moves back and forth same straight line. But then higher line speed is needed when line is launched and shot so Drifting is essential to lengthen following "launch" casting stroke and to prevent tailing loops. If you cast rod upright adjust power so that line just straightens when false casting (for prevailing wind). Slow pace also gives you more time to do Drifting.
Another casting style which is good for short and heavy line heads is Oval Casting (Belgian Cast). The back cast is done more sideways tilted rod which makes line travel lower when it goes back and while line loop straightens rod is positioned more vertical (and Drifted of course :smokin: ) and it makes line loop overshoot more up and fly and line does not hit water or ground. Forward false cast is aimed above horizon so fly does not hit water too much when line loop straightens downward. There are few vimeo- and youtube-videos you should watch because my explanation is not very good.
Esa
Another casting style which is good for short and heavy line heads is Oval Casting (Belgian Cast). The back cast is done more sideways tilted rod which makes line travel lower when it goes back and while line loop straightens rod is positioned more vertical (and Drifted of course :smokin: ) and it makes line loop overshoot more up and fly and line does not hit water or ground. Forward false cast is aimed above horizon so fly does not hit water too much when line loop straightens downward. There are few vimeo- and youtube-videos you should watch because my explanation is not very good.
Esa
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Would a Scandi line 640' grs by Rio with a 40' head be good for that rod fishing the beach and calm water. Or am I better off with a Rio coldwater OB 510 grs inter. line for striper fishing. Thanks guys for all the good info and your time.
I mostly use Scandi heads. I have used to them when fishing rivers and because I had lots of then I used them when I began SW fishing and although I have tried other tapers I find Scandi the best overall line system. Easy to lift using Spey techniques and line loops are beautiful (narrow) because of less straightening overshoot. 90% of time when there is no need to cast more than 80 ft and fly is smallish I Spey cast (Switch cast mostly) and if I need 90ft + range I overhead cast.
Scandi lacks some big fly turning authority to strong head wind but its other advantages overcome this. Scandi line loop straightens pretty good when shooting line is braked towards the end of the cast. This needs some practice because if done too hard of when line is still too high line can bounce back especially when stretchy Nylon SL is used.
Then when head wind is terrible I turn Scandi head backwards and use very short leader and this makes it straighten better than any other line but only a basic (non shooting) cast should be done to keep line loop narrow. But some line can be shot to back cast so even 50ft and longer cast is possible.
Esa
Scandi lacks some big fly turning authority to strong head wind but its other advantages overcome this. Scandi line loop straightens pretty good when shooting line is braked towards the end of the cast. This needs some practice because if done too hard of when line is still too high line can bounce back especially when stretchy Nylon SL is used.
Then when head wind is terrible I turn Scandi head backwards and use very short leader and this makes it straighten better than any other line but only a basic (non shooting) cast should be done to keep line loop narrow. But some line can be shot to back cast so even 50ft and longer cast is possible.
Esa
When 640 gr Scandi and 510 gr other type line performances are compared Scandi wins every time. 25% more line head weight has so big influence to performance than other type of taper can not compensate lighter weight.
But for fishing there are subjective issues which might make lighter line "better"
Esa
But for fishing there are subjective issues which might make lighter line "better"
Esa
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What might they be?
From what I gather, a Scandi line for a 11/12 wt is 700grs.
A Rio OB line is less grs.(510) why? and if I bought a Scandi line, would you buy the hole line made up or just the heads? Or would you buy a Rio OB line. I would be fishing the surf and rivers on less windy days. To old to battle the wind.
Yes AFFTA standard 40ft 12 wt shooting head should weight 700 gr and 11 wt 600 gr but standards are not used too much.
Not knowing for sure but I'm afraid your rod does not have nowhere the stiffness a 12wt DH should have.
I have many Rio AFS heads and mine are within plus 15 gr / minus 30 gr off listed weight and lengths also only 1ft or less off.
Definitely shooting heads as I don't mind slight noise the loop to loop connection cause. I like Nylon shooting line (very durable and very good casting Sawada Flat Beam and best casting Varivas which almost floats but has short life) more than coated SL's.
Lighter line is lighter to cast and fish. Also usually lighter presents fly softer although 510gr OB does not as softly as most scandis because it has blunt and short front taper and the taper is important. Thick and short tapers are better with bigger fly and stronger wind and longer and thinner deliver small fly delicately. For instance a 600gr Scandi with 15 ft tapered leader can be as delicate close to fish as light trout outfits but you have to be at least 30ft away from fish to have some line mass out of rod tip which to cast.
Esa
Not knowing for sure but I'm afraid your rod does not have nowhere the stiffness a 12wt DH should have.
I have many Rio AFS heads and mine are within plus 15 gr / minus 30 gr off listed weight and lengths also only 1ft or less off.
Definitely shooting heads as I don't mind slight noise the loop to loop connection cause. I like Nylon shooting line (very durable and very good casting Sawada Flat Beam and best casting Varivas which almost floats but has short life) more than coated SL's.
Lighter line is lighter to cast and fish. Also usually lighter presents fly softer although 510gr OB does not as softly as most scandis because it has blunt and short front taper and the taper is important. Thick and short tapers are better with bigger fly and stronger wind and longer and thinner deliver small fly delicately. For instance a 600gr Scandi with 15 ft tapered leader can be as delicate close to fish as light trout outfits but you have to be at least 30ft away from fish to have some line mass out of rod tip which to cast.
Esa
OK now I got it. Most Rio OB and OBS lines are cast with single hand rods although heavier ones are good for DH rods too. However they are no standard weight lines. In this link there are SH and DH line standards but unfortunately most line manufacturers don't use them neither do rod manufacturers when rating rods.
http://www.affta.org/member-services/industry-standards/
http://www.affta.org/member-services/industry-standards/
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This is why us new guys to 2H rods have trouble understanding ?
My experience has been the same. Not that I have fished a long rod much I have fished an 11'7" rod off the beach the last several years with success. Most recently over the weekend for schoolies up to 21 inches. Sometimes they would hit within ten feet of the tip of the rod. Others at the start of the retrieve. Need to cover both so chose a line accordingly. My line is an SGS custom intermediate. You can see me loading up in the back of the photo below.
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14 foot
There is nothing wrong with using a 14 ft rod for OH casting on the beach. You don't want a 14 ft noodle, a fast action or even medium is fine. I Use a 14ft9wt tfo and a 14'9 10/11 fto quite often. Head length is pretty good at 37ft for these. Or heavy 30ft shooting heads will suffice if you are going with heavy sinking lines.
My goto line these days is scandi short body camo, so it's an intermediate body line and you use either a type 3/6/8 sinking tip or clear intermediate. It overhead and spey casts well.
JP
There is nothing wrong with using a 14 ft rod for OH casting on the beach. You don't want a 14 ft noodle, a fast action or even medium is fine. I Use a 14ft9wt tfo and a 14'9 10/11 fto quite often. Head length is pretty good at 37ft for these. Or heavy 30ft shooting heads will suffice if you are going with heavy sinking lines.
My goto line these days is scandi short body camo, so it's an intermediate body line and you use either a type 3/6/8 sinking tip or clear intermediate. It overhead and spey casts well.
JP
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