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Discussion Starter #1
i know it's been talked of many times,but,time HAS passed and we all learn new tricks,i hope!,sufferring low water/fish#'s here has me groping for a new trick or two, :( ,so,=thoughts on flourocarbon?=
 

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With the low, clear flows in the GL's, flouro has been standard fare for a while now. Many others and myself have tried them all. Most are garbage. The one that is by far the most popular is standard Seaguar Flouro (not the carbon). I have zero complaints and now use it in all fishing situations without exception. It is one of the few products I'd give a 100% thumbs up.
 

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I agree with Craig about flouro being the norm here in the Great Lakes. I however, give the thumbs up to Orvis Mirage. With their new formulation the diameters got smaller and breaking strength went up! I've used the Seaguar, and it does work well, but I will continue to use the Mirage. The diameters just seem smaller.
All I know is stay away from the Berkley Vanish. That stuff is nothing but junk on a spool!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
normally

i'm happy with Maxima green when swinging two-handed,,,love the easy knotability,it's reliable,have used it sooo long i hate to change :( have used mirage years ago,agree wholeheartedly with the vanish statement although some in my area use it succesfully with indicator setups,one lakefishing fanatic swears by `stren' :confused: , i purchased some flouro from a shop made by Rio,knotted fine but it was a bit smaller diameter than i was used to in the same wt. rating, lost flies pretty quickly pounding the bottom,hmmm geewillickers! if we only had some color in the water!,,hmmmmm :confused: `chrome' sounds good! :chuckle: thanks for the replys!
 

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flouro

I have used fluoro tippets for years in salt water applications. Reasons for using are abrasion resistance and invisibility. I have found that knots are not durable and respond poorly to an impulse of force.
People used to tell me that you can't knot fluoro to anything else without a loss of strength. So i used to build leaders with the smallest 2 sections using fluoro. I now believe that this philosophy is wrong, because i want more strechy mono between the fly line and tippet. Anything to lessen the impulse on the knots.
I usually use uni knots, sometimes surgeons knots when im on the water and in a hurry.
Iv'e used Mirage, seaguar, and berkeley - havent noticed a difference in performance. LB Tests vary greatly between mfgrs. I just go by diameter. I think i have berkeley and seaguar in .015/15lb test. Will do some knot tug-o-wars when i get a chance.

Jay
 

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Would have to agree with most posters fluoro is junk. Have used Orvis Mirage briefly and the fluoro wanted to break whatever I had it tied to. I am an old school, if it isn't broke, why fix it kind of guy, and use Maxima in the three flavors it comes in. For most of my fishing regular Max brown for the butts sections and Max clear for the tippets. If you think about the way we fish for Steelhead, on the swing, they should see the fly before the leader.
Leroy.................
 

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swing'n Lemmings
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florocarbon

I too Fish the GL area and I have been using Seguar Floro on all of my setups for the past 4 years. I am still using Maxima ultragreen for my butt sections. it is nice to be able to use 10 or 12 lb floro to get the fish in fast and back on his way. I have been using the seguar carbon pro and have had no problems with it.
Rambo
 

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swing'n Lemmings
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knots

When I make leaders I use a double surgeons(or river) or blood knot if I am pre tying them at home infront of the tv. for the tippet to fly conection I use a improved cinch or a palomar Knot. all of my knots are wet and tightened fast. I amsure every body has there own feelings about that but it works for me.
Rambo
 

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EAT IT!!!
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I use Rio Flouroflex + quite a bit and have been very happy with it in 2x-5x sizes. Now strangely, unlike Rio's first generation flouro, it has Mic'ed out to be 1x thicker than it says it is. However, the knot strenght, abraision resistance and lack of memory and overall performance make up for this. Also, this fish don't seem to mind the slightly larger diamater. I notice that I have fewer knot failures and fish loses due to tippet abrasion with this material than I seem to with standard powerflex, which I continue to use whenever conditions warrent it as I don't like Flouro's long life span sitting around the rivers I am trying not to pollute.

I normally blood knot the Flouroflex + tippet to maxima (which also mic's out way higher than it is labeled) of about 2 thousands diamater larger. These knots seem to be FAR more consistant than a double or triple surgeons, though people who are "experts" on knots will tell you otherwise. The blood knots will either break when you test them, just after tying, or not break at all. Surgeons seem to break much less consistantly.

Knoting Flouro to my fly I either use a Turle knot or a duncan loop. Both have been just fine, provided they are tied well. If not, they break when tested.

Of the brands of flouro I have used, Vanish has sucked, umpqua's 2nd generation stuff likes to curl up when you knot it, SA has been pretty good in the limited amounts I have used and Rio's FF+ has been good. Just wish that 4x was actually 4x :mad:
 

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loco alto!
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My conscience wouldn't let me use fluorocarbon for a long time because it won't degrade. Finally, with some low water, I broke down and bought a spool of recommended Seaguar. Within a few minutes (10 lb test) of trying it I had a take and an immediate breakoff. snap! Never had that with ultragreen. I immediately snipped off the fluoro and back to the UG. My conscience feels better, too.
 

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For swinging it probably doesn't matter that much, Hammer. For other presentations, it can make all the difference in the world. Most guys who say it makes no difference at all, don't generally fish stillwaters, saltwater, or other situations where visibility can be critical. Those that have problems with tying knots in the stuff, frankly, have problems with knots--not the material.

Seaguar Grand Max and Orvis Mirage are among the better materials available. Both are 100% fluorocarbon, as opposed to a coated material, and have the highest strength to diameter ratings of any fluorocarbon tippet on the market that I've seen or tried. Mirage is quite a bit cheaper, however, as it's price per spool is lower and the amount per spool is much higher.

I've used fluorocarbon for going on ten years. It makes a tremendous and observable difference in many situations. Whether it makes a difference in other situations is an unknown. I have tried a variety of knots with the stuff, but have had as much success with the most common knots, e.g., improved clinch, blood knot, surgeon's knot, etc., as anything else. It can be joined to mono without major issues as well.

One other quick point. Comparing any material to Maxima requires a little truth in advertising. Compare the materials based on diameter--not the manufacturer's rating for strength. What Maxima rates as "10 lb." and measuring .012" (but which actually measures closer to .013 most of the time if you check it) is actually larger in diameter than what Mirage rates at 16.5 lb. (.011" diameter) and closer to what Mirage rates as 18.2 lb. (.013" diameter) than anything else. Don't get me wrong, I use Maxima when visibility doesn't matter too, but if I compared a length of tippet to anchor rope for strength the anchor rope would always win as well. That wouldn't tell me much about the real strength of either, though.
 

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Call me jaded :roll: but Steelhead, Salmon swinging flies - fluoro :confused: why? Before any one jumps in with Great Lakes I have been doing this here for a very long time. Maybe in the Salt I don't know but the triggers we are pushing dont call for invisible tippett. :roll: I have never had reason to go below 8lb. maxima/rio since I started swinging flies and yes even when I am fishing in the GLs :eek: do I rarely go below 10.
 

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First of all either Orvis or Rio do not manufacture fluorocarbon tippet materials!!!!!!!
All new generation of the best fluorocarbon tippets/leaders are manufactured by
Seaguar, the company which invented fluorocarbon polymer.
Either it is Seaguar, Rio, Umpqua, Orvis, all tippets have very similar diameter/strength despite small differences on the labels ( marketing).

We should also remember that the density of fluorocarbon polymer is noticeable higher then the traditional materials, allowing particularly longer fluorocarbon leader to sink much faster.
 

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salmo said:
...all tippets have very similar diameter/strength despite small differences on the labels ( marketing).
Nope. Measured and experimented with virtually any brand you can name. There have also been several articles in fly fishing magazines doing the same. There are substantial differences in not only diameter and strength between brands, but also very different compositions of the material itself.

Rumor has it that Mirage and Seaguar Grand Max are the same material, and they do measure and rate the same, but "all" brands do NOT have similar diameters and strengths. For example, even standard Seaguar and Seaguar Grand Max are not comparable materials. Check them for yourself.
 

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I have said ”All new generation of the best fluorocarbon tippets/leader.

I didn’t mean to compare for example Rio fluoroflex with Rio Fluoroflex Plus.
When you compare Orivs, Seaguar or Rio Fluoroflex Plus they do have similar but not identical!!! strength/diameter.
It could be that for example Seaguar 1X in 1 or 2 lb stronger from true 1X Rio plus, but all of them are much stronger from 1-st generation of fluorocarbon tippets which are stiffer and weaker.
 

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Knots

peter-s-c said:
How do you fluoro users tie your knots? And which ones? Use lots of spit? Pull tight fast or slow?
Peter-
I use a duncan loop for the connection to the fly. As with all line, I wet it well and then use a continous motion to seat the knot. The thing I always do is after I feel the knot has been seated I pull back up on the tag end while holding the fly. Often times I can get the knot to slide back at me just a bit and then I once again seat the knot by pulling on the main line.
Even though flouro knots can be tougher to seat I only remember losing one fish due to my knot breaking/slipping.
I am going to start using the non-slip loop more but need to really be comfortable tying it before I start using it on the river. The fact that the loop stays open is what I really like.
For line to line connections I use a back to back duncan loop/uni-knot. I've always had great success with this connection and will continue to use it.
Hope this helps!
 

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Personally, I doubt Seaguar Grand Max and Orvis Mirage are the same formulation, they feel quite different, and Grand Max is unavailable above 03X (0.014").

I think the Grand Max represents the best combination of abrasion resistance, knot-friendliness, and strength/diameter ratio. The Grand Max is available from 03X through 7X. Fishing in the Keys, it quickly became very clear that Grand Max's abrasion resistance was superior to other FC materials, even those of much thicker diameter.

Knot-wise, in a finding opposite to what I found with Maxima UltraGreen, the triple surgeon's was not the strongest compared to a improved blood knot. consistently, the strongest knot I've tested for flouro has been the back to back nail.

For joining diverse tippet sizes (e.g. tarpon shock to class tippet), or for a 100% strength tippet connections (e.g. for permit fishing), a knot that Fritz Kocher came up with, called the "slim beauty" beats them all.
 

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I'd never heard of the Slim Beauty, so I searched it out. This link gives a video that is just awesome in its clarity. If Dana is looking for ideas, I suggest that it would be nice to have vids like this showing different line looping methods.

http://www.midcurrent.com/articles/knots/slim_beauty.aspx
 

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That's the knot! It is fantastic.

I erroneously mis-credited the originator of the knot... Sorry Mr. Becker!
 

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follow up test

Did a break test with Berkeley vs seaguar. Seaguar was .015, 15lb. Berkeley was .016, 20lb. Tied 2 end to end perfection loops on each line and measured break lbs using a digital fish wiegher. repeated test 4 times for each line. I realize that the perfection loop is a weak knot, but it's an apples to apples test. Berkeley broke 3 times just under 10lbs, once at 12. Seaguar broke anywhere between 13 and 15 lbs.
So berkeley is not so good, especially considering that it's diameter was bigger.

jay

ps - I liked that new knot with the figure 8 in the heavy line, pretty slick. Close in strength to surgeons knot though. Surgeons knot won 1 tug-o-war out of 3.
 
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