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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been following the newist and latist in rods, line, reels ect. in the spey casting community for the past 10 years or so. The new product enters the market. It has a nice color and is hot for a while and then no one hears much about it. Then a new rod is all over the pages and disappears. Even some of the bigger companys fallout of favor for a while. The companys that are aware of this may turn around. Some may be good at the single handed scene and miss out in their 2 handed models. Does anyone make any predictions on companys on the way up and those on the decline. Jerry
 

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I see T&T, Sage, St Croix, G. Loomis, B&W, Hardy, and Loop holding their own and being around for a long while. CND and Meiser are going to continue to increase market share and Burkheimer will continue to build his essentially custom rods for those with the money to spend.
 

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Fly Tyer a minor correction Burkheimers are about the same pricees as most everyone else and less than some...

I think we will continue to see what we have always seen only with a few more options in the lower and mid range rods. A few years ago if you were a novice on a budget you bough the 14 ft st croix. Now you have all kinds of options and the rods are better than thoes st croix in terms of performance. It's not my place really to talk much about other manufacturers specifically however i think what you will see is that overal things will be stable. The manufacturers for whom spey is a big deal will remain on top while manufacturers for whom spey is a minor issue will not maintain a high level of performance and there rods will only be good as their RnD and expertice will allow. Now i'm not an inductry expert but i just think that the companies that care about the performance of their spey rods will continue to make good rods and those that don't will make rods that are just good enough.

In my mind there are very few companies putting out poor rods these days. I think the vast majority of manufactures have responded very well to the growing trend of two handed rods and should be commended. I was impressed with just about everything I cast at the spey clave even if I didn't like how they felt before I cast them.. Fred Evans knows what i'm talking about:) I hate to admit it Fred but they are pretty good sticks..

I think the most interesting trend will be in watching the popularity of the various casting styles and how those styles influence rod design.

Two years ago they spey clave was all about the XLT and long bellies.. this clave it seemed to be a greater mix of long medium and short heads. Casting strokes of every imaginable length casts of all shapes and sizes.
hmm I feel like I am saying a lot of nothing.. My point is I don't think we'll see much change. I just think we'll be seeing a lot more of the same..
 

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This is the epicenter, IMO

I agree that the companies who make spey a priority will outperform those who just 'have some spey' in their inventory. I think that this forum in particular, and the interaction that takes place at claves, is major fuel for the RnD fire. The experience, experiments, and dialogue that takes place in this community should be regular reading for the manufacturers who want to win the game.

That said, the 'fad' idea is an interesting one. I think the mfr's goal is not to be the next fad, but to develop products that are such quality and lasting utility that they transcend 'fad'. The Windcutter line is perhaps the best example. I think the 'trout-spey' is going to come on strong as a product category, and I don't think it will ever go away. Gotta get to work...

Carl
 

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One additional thing
as carl just mentioned the trout thing will have a big draw but I do not think you'll see a whole lot of development on rods over 15 feet for two reasons

1. it's a small niche market
2 rnd on such long rods is extremely expensive


11-12.5 foot 5-7wts will be the next big thing

also i'd expect to start seeing shorter big rods for salmon fishing 11-13 ft 10 and 11 wts. with poor runs of steelhead and good salmon runs it's just a niche thats gonna need to be filled
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Inovative people out there

Ideas come from the top down and from the bottom up. The many hours we spend with a spey rod waiting for the fly to end its swing leaves much time to think. An improved line or the rod that feels just right. A little tweaking here and there and we not have a better casting line or rod. I just read in the paper this morning that Boeing has developed some new carbon fiber material for the 7E7. Look out in a few years we will have that perfect rod. Now what do we do with the pile of rods in the closet when we buy the new one? Jerry
 

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Jerry, you always post good questions.

I spent some time a couple of weekends ago with a sponsor of the forum talking about the whole "spey thing". He is of the opinion that the market is starting to approach saturation and the huge growth trend is about over. He did think though that the trout speys will be big for a few years. He also reinforced that while spey rods are a big part of his business that overall in the industry they are a very small percentage of the rods sold. This echos something one of the Sage guys told me before that for every double-handed rod sold, they sell 100 9' 5 weights.
 

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Roballen,

Sorry about my mistake on the price of Burkheimers, thanks for correcting it. Also, I wish you were wrong about the development of rods over 15'; unfortunately, you are correct. Rods over 15' are a niche market and I have been surprised at the amouint of R&D it takes as rods go over the 15' length. I still want a fast recovering, stiff, powerful, low swing weight 17' to 17'6" rod that wil work perfectly with the 10/11 GrandSpey's 1500 gr. belly without the line feeling like it overloads the rod.

Sinktip,

I heard the same thing about the 2-hand market being about saturated 5 years ago. I'm not sure if we are close to that point yet, although I know that there are a tremendous number of single-hand rods made and sold compared to the small market share of the 2-handers.
 

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This may be sacrelgious,

But.......

Judging by the amount of inquiries that I have been getting from the salt water and big stillwater guys, I think we will see a strong appreciation by anglers for the shorter two handed overhead rods......Especially in the shallow salt, and warm water community.

Rods designed specifically for delivering shooting head systems utilizing two handed presentations.

....Appreciation not only from anglers that are presently physically burdened by conventional single hand double haul deliveries, but also by savvy fly anglers in general that are now begining to realize how much easier and more efficient the overhead delivery is when compared to the double haul.

And not long rods.... But rods from 9 ft. to 11 ft.

Like boat rods designed for search casting where repetative long distance casting is required.

The availability of balanced shooting head line systems, targeting specific fisheries will be the key to this..... Just as the availability of well designed off-the-shelf "Spey" lines have popularized two handed rods for fishing moving hydraulics.

I see THIS as a major development in the evolution of two handed fly rods.

I think that we will also see a stronger appreciation of traditional two handed rods in warm water moving hydraulics.

....It seems that alot of my smaller two handed rods are targeting riverborne gamefish these days like Smallies, Pike and Musky......And dare I say Carp as well !!!

Meiz
 

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Carp!

I hear you Bob on the carp thing. I do quite a bit of fishing for carp now that I am in PIttsburgh and often use two-handers.

None of my rods is a great overhead rod, so I always feel like I could use an 11' 8wt rod that is good for overhand when the fish are closer. Especially with the 14-20' leaders I have to use to catch these spooky fish, a longer rod might help.

For a particular section of the Allegheny, I throw a leadcore tip connected to the pre-hinge area of a 10-11 accellerator and get walleye, catfish, and other beasties (suckers!!!) on various wooly things.

I see a niche for you Mr. Meiser!

Best-

Joe West
 

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Fads

Fads—Interesting Post

Some thoughts:
-Fads exist because of consumers that, by definition of a fad, are interested in fashion/trend/vogue, rather than substance.
-Predicting future companies “on the upside or downside of a fad,” fads being unrelated to substance, is mainly speculation. But present fashionable trends, such as the sales success of very fast single-hand rods are obvious.
-In “Fly Rod & Reel” June 2004 issue, an article titled “Straight from the Source” offers interesting insights on fly rod design from the viewpoint of several of the US’s top fly rod designers. A least three of the group are not sold on the usable benefit of fast single-hand rods. Sage’s Siem states: “There’s not many casters at all that are getting out of those [fast] rods what we’re putting into them. Most people probably don’t even take their rod up to even 70% of what the rod is capable of.”
-The term “most people” defines a majority that cannot use the benefit of the product being purchased. Sounds like a fad to me, one that is profitable for those companies riding the wave. And noting Sage’s introduction of the ultra fast TCR, there is a lot of profitable surfing left.

-Spey rods and Spey casting/fishing are not fads for the reasons that the benefits over single-hand rods are substantial, considerable and realizable by non-experts.
-I agree with Carl that the WindCutter is not a fad, for dozens of substantial reasons previously discussed on this forum.
-Skagit lines are not a fad for substantial reasons.
-Long belly lines may fall into the category of fads if the majority of users never realize “even 70% of what the [line] is capable of” to borrow Mr. Siem’s phrase.
-I am not sure Sinktip’s industry source that the “Spey thing” is approaching saturation is correct. I fish a lot of steelhead rivers where Spey rods are in the minority. The relative volume of single- vs. double-hand rods is not germane to saturation of one market.
-I fall into flytyer’s camp that predictions of Spey stuff’s demise are premature. New entrants seldom accompany saturation of a product class and there are plenty of new entrants in the Spey stuff and double-handed market. Meiz put his the case well.
 

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Bob,

To clear up a point. The person I talked to did not think spey rods were a fad nor do I. His thoughts were simply that the dramatic increase in sales of two-handed rods that he has seen in the last 4-5 years were starting to slow. I can't speak to where you fish but in the anadromous rivers I fish in Idaho, Washington, Oregon and B.C., it has become a rarity to see a single-hander. Granted these are most often large rivers and my observations might be diff. if I hung out on the smaller more pocket water type rivers that the indicator and glo-bug fishermen prefer.

sinktip
 

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The North Umpqua still has lots of single hander guys and they are staunchly single handed! It's not because the market hasn't hit there it's because they rejected it:)
 

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one hander's

allow you to have a smoke while you wait,wait,wait,did i say wait? for a fish to come by:hehe:
 

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wet fly

I get the feeling that many rod makers would love to see the Spey Rod/Two Handed Rod "fad" die and go away.

It ain't going to happen as more seasoned fly fishers rip up their shoulders, elbows and forarms doing the double haul with the bigger/stiffer single handed rods. This number will increase as the baby boomers behind me hit those physical walls at ages 50, 55, 60 and 65. My son the CroMag caster, may not make it to age 40. Most of the pre and actual Boomers have abused their bodies worse that I did. Also, as you get older, you get a little less sure footed wading deeper and faster water that the single handed rods demand.

This will create a demand for the so called trout spey rods and then for the lighter "steelhead", 13 to 14 foot rods in the 8/9 weight class, like the ARC 1409, a light rod capable of handling the Grand Spey 7/8.

As Bob Meiser noted, the two handed rods will open up the beaches and surf to those of us unable to double haul 70 to 90 foot of shooting line and a sinking head all day with one handed rod as rigid as a telephone pole.

The other area of development will as noted in another thread will be short two handed rods for salmon and big winter steelhead. These rods will be in the 10/11/12 weight bracket. They will launch rapid sinking heads and large critters and weigh a lot less than a 14-15' 9 to 10 weight rod. They will be able to cast spey lines, shooting heads and Skagit lines with spey casts, overhead casts and the Skagit cast. They will be light but powerful like the new Sage Ocean One Handed Rods.

Out here on the West Coast, the term Trout Spey is about half right. A better term would be a light Spring/Summer/Fall Spey Rod. These rods will catch not only trout, but shad, half pounders, summer steelhead, bass, brown trout and sea perch. You will be able to spey cast, roll cast or overhead cast with these rods in any river, stream, lake or coastal area. These smaller/lighter spey rods will not wear us out while casting and still be effective fish catchers and line casters. My new Sage 6126 with the Mid Spey 7/8 with tips and tip compensator fills that slot for me.

My ARC 1409 fills the bill for most late fall/winter, bigger water and bigger fish category. With the Loop 4 and Grand Spey 7/8 with tips, I can handle most water and fish during the late fall/winter season.

My new Meiser Saltwater Rod will handle the summer/fall salmon in the rivers and estuaries and those just outside the ocean with any stripers in the surf. It is probably too much of a rod for the ocean perch in my area. So the Sage 6126 will probably be used with the WC 678 upgrade with sinking tips and maybe the tip compensator. Again a matter of casting comfort and ease becomes important to this old man so the 6126 will probably become my surf rod for ocean perch.

Any rod manufacturer who ignores the aging fly fisher population and the needs/trends I have noted above, may not be around in the next decade.
 

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forward thinking!

how about a rod within a rod,,sort of an overload spring,overdrive,et al,or a reelseat that moves to compensate for tip angle ,or a weight in the handle for same,how about a lighter simpler ,more efficient guide system that REALLY works,there's a LOOONG way to go,rods are archaic , by choice,?,think about it,old school thread wraps,wood,tree bark,all coupled with `space age ' composites,?,hmmm,if some being from another planet landed here,well:eyecrazy:
 

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Hammer

So whats better than cork ,Ive fished unhappily with some plastic handled rods .
Have to agree about thread wraps and wooden reel fittings ,pretty but pointless ,I had a phase of bulding blanks and taping on the rings with electrical tape ,that was in the late glass early graphite days . the rings are still on some of those rods .not pretty but it worked .Fuji type reel fittings keep me very happy .
then I am a fishing rods a tool not a status symbol man.
 

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got you thinking!

didn't I ?,,didn't mean to get under anyone's skin,remember i'm an old motorbike nut, so i see how they've changed over the years,tremedously!,so many advancements in performance of all aspects of them,,i love the simplest handle of them all the; old style B-W,,i'm wishing all my rods had this all-cork handle,,,of corse i still love the sound of aTriumph Bonneville at full song,,the old ones,not the reborn company,,even though their products are better,,,,?,,,:( :rolleyes: ;)
 
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