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Discussion Starter · #1 ·


I'm having trouble getting any good distance with the fly above. It is the Hightower Tres Generation Squid, hook size 3/0. The body is just a little over 2" long and the mylar tail is 3" long. The fly weighs 60 grains

With my TCR 9129-4 with a Skagit 650, 10 weight Rio floating tip and 15' leader with 2' of 12# tippet and my Semi Skagit cast, I'm lucky to get 1 to 2 rod lengths of running line out past the rod tip with my casts.

With an overhand cast, I'm getting a little over 2 rod lengths of running line with my casts past my rod tip.

With a standard striper clouser fly 2/0, I can easily get 3-4 rod lengths of running line out with a Skagit style cast or 4+ rod lengths of running line with the overhead cast with this line and terminal gear.

My loops start off good and somewhere between 45' - 50' out the flies and loop just run out of energy and come down slowly like a wounded bird. Sometimes it looks like a small parachute coming down after the loop runs out of energy.

Our local stripers when we have warm weather like we have had this past week will come to the surface and bang a surface fly. The water is very clear and they are apparently able to see us from the shore at least 60-70' and probably 80-90' from the casting platform of a boat. If they see the caster, they will not strike the fly. It has to be the most exciting striper hit of all. You can see a bulge in the water as a big V moves towards your fly and suddenly the Striper comes up and gulps down the big fly.

I have had a few bulges and vees start towards these shorter casts, and apparently the fish see me (I'm wearing sage green shirts and slacks to blend in with the shore brush). So they veer off or go under the fly. :( :eek:

A lot of the guys are bubble casting these flies and other floaters with a spinning rod :( to get out where the stripers can't see the caster). I would like to catch one with my fly rod.

Would I be better off with my Jet Stream and maybe a 10' leader?

Any suggestions beside taking out my spinning rod or my rifle? :saeek:
 

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Dave,
I'm heading for the GGACC tomorrow morning at 7:30AM. Do you want to go? We'll find out how to cast that puppy of yours.

Jay Clark is offering a program on shooting heads at 9AM, after which I'll be testing the new Rio all floating Skagit Spey lines.
Bob
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks but my trophy wife has me booked up

Bob Pauli said:
Dave,
I'm heading for the GGACC tomorrow morning at 7:30AM. Do you want to go? We'll find out how to cast that puppy of yours.

Jay Clark is offering a program on shooting heads at 9AM, after which I'll be testing the new Rio all floating Skagit Spey lines.
Bob
Thanks Bob, but I'm booked up. Dang it!

Please try some large floating fly critter on the 650 or 750 Floating Skagits and let me know how they work on a fast 9 or 10 wt rod.

This is the first thing/combo where I have had my loops run out of gas with any of my rods and Skagit lines. I have to bring in about 3-4' of the head to set up the cast. Which I find interesting as you know with that TCR it will pull out 26' of T14, 26' Striper heads up to 450 grains and your Big Boys. Of course those are sinking tips/heads, and this big fly is on the surface creating a lot of drag. Last but not least, the load feel is not as good as with a sinking tip or floating tip and a "normal" fly.

Thanks for the great offer. Please let me know how the floating Skagits work.
 

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GS - I would shorten your leader a bunch - I expect that heavy of a fly will collapse most leaders - try a heavy butt section with a short tapered and tippet section. If fish are spooky might put on a clear intermediate tip rather than a floater
 

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Hey Gramps. I would suggest that the problem is that the Tres Generation is not a surface fly. Depending on the amount of epoxy they will ride anywhere from in, not on, the surface film, to flat out underwater. A flat faced popper is hard enough to pick up with a spey cast, but you are pulling a basically flat faced sub-surface fly,designed from the get go to push water, out of the water which is killing your cast. Switch to a true popper, or better yet a slider. Learn to tie crease flies and you'll never buy another popper again. Man I miss stripers...
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
My flies float, probably in the surface film

Philster said:
Hey Gramps. I would suggest that the problem is that the Tres Generation is not a surface fly. Depending on the amount of epoxy they will ride anywhere from in, not on, the surface film, to flat out underwater. A flat faced popper is hard enough to pick up with a spey cast, but you are pulling a basically flat faced sub-surface fly,designed from the get go to push water, out of the water which is killing your cast. Switch to a true popper, or better yet a slider. Learn to tie crease flies and you'll never buy another popper again. Man I miss stripers...
Your description is basically what is happening with my attempts to cast this fly.

What pray tell is a Crease Fly?

Twice, yesterday when I finally got this monster fly out even 50+ feet, I had big V's heading to the fly. One went under and the other veered off and left a V wake on top that was big and long. I never saw the Stripers. I have hooked and lost a couple of monsters on size 2/0 Clousers in this spot this past August. One shredded a 12# Maxima Tippet like it was nothing. It went down stream turned sideways and rolled and popped the tippet. A couple of guys on the other side of the river said that it looked longer than their legs. There have been a couple of 30#ers caught in this area and one at 40# on a Boca Grip was caught and released a few weeks ago.

Thanks
 

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Dave,
Frank Chen was kind enough to bring the same fly you pictured to the GGACC this morning. Frank and Ray and I worked your fly with two setups. We did not have time to set up with a floating line, sorry about that.

Setup one: T&T 1307 with Skagit 650 and 7-feet of T-14 with a two foot leader. Does normal snap-T without problem; casts abut 65-70 feet.
Setup two: T&T 1307 with Skagit 750 and 10-feet of T-14 with a two foot leader. Does normal snap-T without problem; casts 80-feet with Frank Chen's long top-hand stroke. Ray and I cast this setup about 75-feet.

Using setup two with 15-feet of T-14 was not easily castable.
 

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Bob, those are some serious grains compared to the Skagit 450 you've recommended previously for that rod
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks Bob

Bob Pauli said:
Dave,
Frank Chen was kind enough to bring the same fly you pictured to the GGACC this morning. Frank and Ray and I worked your fly with two setups. We did not have time to set up with a floating line, sorry about that.

Setup one: T&T 1307 with Skagit 650 and 7-feet of T-14 with a two foot leader. Does normal snap-T without problem; casts abut 65-70 feet.
Setup two: T&T 1307 with Skagit 750 and 10-feet of T-14 with a two foot leader. Does normal snap-T without problem; casts 80-feet with Frank Chen's long top-hand stroke. Ray and I cast this setup about 75-feet.

Using setup two with 15-feet of T-14 was not easily castable.
Bob thanks to you and Frank for trying this wiffle ball fly for me. I have a couple of questions:

1. With the 7' of T14, did the fly float after the cast, or did the T-14 pull it down under?

2. What is Frank's long top-hand stroke?

One final comment, that T&T 1307 sounds like it needs a steroid test. A 7 weight rod casting Skagit 650 and 750's is something else. :saeek:

Thanks again,
Dave
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I will try the shorter leader and intermediate tips this week

Rick J said:
GS - I would shorten your leader a bunch - I expect that heavy of a fly will collapse most leaders - try a heavy butt section with a short tapered and tippet section. If fish are spooky might put on a clear intermediate tip rather than a floater
Thanks for the suggestion. I will try a shorter leader, starting at 10' and working down to about 7' with a couple of feet of tippet.

Yesterday I was down at the river for about an hour at the end of the day, it had turned cooler and there was no top water activity where I could cast.

I tried the 15' clear intermediate tip with a size 2/0 Clouser and after a few adjustments (versus floating tip and type 7 tip or T-14), the tip handles the fly very well and was easier to cast longer distances than the floating tips or sinking tips.

I have the Rio 7' and 12' sinking leader sets, and I will try the clear intermediate tips this week with the fly. Thanks.
 

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Hmmm....I thought you had an atlantis?

Really with these big poppers, even big crease flies, they are more a problem to spey cast than it can be worth. Mainly having to do with that big anchor you got at the end of your leader it makes a clean forward cast hard to do. That is unless you throw 1000 grains at the problem but that in my mind defeats the purpose. Why have a casting rig almost as heavy as the fish :) Also the anchor ripping out of the water for the forward cast is not kind to crease flies. It opens up the lips on them.

The rio outbound lines do a superb job of turning over large flies. I use the 600 grain one on the large atlantis and can turn over just about anything. Actually nothing I have come across yet has not been at least castable to 80' and these are 12 inch herring flies. The RIO skagit lines and horrible (if not dangerous) to use overhead. To short a head and too many grains.

If a shop has one look at getting a rio outbound for your rod. I do not think skagit casting is the answer for this problem. Get a good overhead line for your TCR and you will be a happy camper.

-sean
 

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Grampa Spey said:
Bob thanks to you and Frank for trying this wiffle ball fly for me. I have a couple of questions:

1. With the 7' of T14, did the fly float after the cast, or did the T-14 pull it down under?

2. What is Frank's long top-hand stroke?

One final comment, that T&T 1307 sounds like it needs a steroid test. A 7 weight rod casting Skagit 650 and 750's is something else. :saeek:

Thanks again,
Dave

Dave, Steve, Sean:
To answer your questions:
1. The T-14 pulls the fly under the water. The fly is neutrally buoyant. Before casting, we placed the free [not connected to leader] fly on the water's surface, where it remained. Then we placed it under the surface, where it stayed.

2. Frank is a superb long line [spell: Carron] distance caster and uses a very long top-hand only stroke. His stroke more gently accelerates a fly line than that of folks using shorter, faster strokes, such as underhand. In this case, the water releases the "fly" in a more controlled fashion.

3. The 650 and 750 Skagit are excellent with the T&T 1307. My early recommendation to use a Skagit 450 was based on a mix-up of line containers, and my failure to notice an "overly fat 450," that actually weighed 750 grains! The early 2005 data collected for Spey rods using the 450 were in fact accomplished with a 750 Skagit line. We took several days and reran all the 450 tests to determine that the 750 was indeed used. Please recall that our testing goal was and is to determine the heaviest practical, fishable sink tip a rod/Skagit combination can comfortably handle. A T&T with a Skagit 450 will cast lighter sink tips with ease, and if that is what conditions require, go for it. However, if you want to shake hands with the big guys down deep, you can, with heaver Skagit heads.

As a case in point, I fished Alaska's Situk River earlier this month [November 2005], a stream that requires casts from 25-feet to 70-feet. I used a T&T 1307 with both a Skagit 750 and 650 and 8-feet of T-14 without cheater. The shortest casts allowed less than half of the Skagit head out of the guides, so the heavier heads worked well, superbly is probably a better term. Backing up to streamside brush with rod vertical, a small flick of the rod layed out perfect 25-foot mini casts. For longer casts, letting the T-14 settle a bit during the "anchor phase" provided grip for the forward stroke.
I settled on the 650 Skagit as superior because its thinness, relative to the 750, made is preferable in the icing conditions encountered, water 34 degrees F [1 degree C] and air 29 degrees F [- 1.5 C].
Was the 650 or 750 Skagit needed for this fishing adventure? No, but they might have been absolutely necessary. During my April visit to this same river, high water required all day casting with a BigBoy 500 to reach visible holding fish. The Skagit 750 made it easy. Not knowing what conditions I would see this trip, I knew that one rod and one Rio Skagit head with a huge variety of tips would enable me to cover ALL the water. This is an example of why considering Rio's Skagit Spey line to be useful only for Skagit casting does disservice to the product's versatility. If I were Jim Vincent, I would consider renaming the product--it is capable of so much more than Skagit casting.

The T&T 1307's practical heavy tip limit is a 24-foot 500-grain Big Boy cast with a Skagit 750 [10/11]. This is a fishable combination, and does not appear to stress the rod.

Please remember that our test program is not about Skagit casting and casts are not Skagit style. If fact we consider the Skagit cast cast as currently being promulgated limiting. We recognized early in 2005 that Skagit lines are capable of much, much more than [Skagit] casting relatively light [commonly less than 150 grains] sinking tips such as T-14 or LC-13.

We use what partner Tom Keelin calls the "Half Out and Go" casting technique as analogous to Simon's "Splash and Go." The Half Out and Go is a conventional Spey cast with enough back cast energy to lift half the sink tip above the water's surface, followed by an easy forward stroke. One can see that a 750-grain Skagit head back cast with a minor bit of vigor will lift a resting 500-grain BigBoy partially above the water, allowing an easy forward cast. None of this is stressing the T&T1307.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Misc replies to Sean

sean said:
Hmmm....I thought you had an atlantis?

Really with these big poppers, even big crease flies, they are more a problem to spey cast than it can be worth. Mainly having to do with that big anchor you got at the end of your leader it makes a clean forward cast hard to do. That is unless you throw 1000 grains at the problem but that in my mind defeats the purpose. Why have a casting rig almost as heavy as the fish :) Also the anchor ripping out of the water for the forward cast is not kind to crease flies. It opens up the lips on them.

The rio outbound lines do a superb job of turning over large flies. I use the 600 grain one on the large atlantis and can turn over just about anything. Actually nothing I have come across yet has not been at least castable to 80' and these are 12 inch herring flies. The RIO skagit lines and horrible (if not dangerous) to use overhead. To short a head and too many grains.

If a shop has one look at getting a rio outbound for your rod. I do not think skagit casting is the answer for this problem. Get a good overhead line for your TCR and you will be a happy camper.

-sean
No Atlantis rods, the TCR is the one I bid on earlier this year. It is a great rod.

I will be getting a Rio Outbound WF10F as one of my Christmas Presents. I will use it with Mieser's 9/10 Switch Rod as that is my main Striper rod in my boat and these floating lures. Also, that line should work as a Skagit Line with my Sage 5120.

Re casting the Skagit overhead, I have no problem with my Sage 5120, 6125, 7135, 7141 and my TCR with the appropriate Skagit lines. I just roll cast to set up the overhead and watch the backward loop to time the forward cast. I have never hit myself or came close.

With the Outbound 6 sinker with the intermediate running line with my Meiser 5/6 Switch rod and the OB 8 with my Meiser 7/8, I have banged myself a couple of times :( and had some close calls on the forward part of the overhead casts from my casting platform in my boat and so has my friend. We have found that both of us need to pull about 6-8 ft of the head past the rod tip to set up the cast to prevent close calls. Casting from a boat 3' above the water may be the cause.

However, when everything goes correctly with the OBs, the results are excellent. :Eyecrazy: My friend and I joke that we may have to get Duck Stamps for the Mallards, dumb enough to stay 80'+ from the boat.

Thanks for the warning about casting the Crease Flies with two handed rods. I was wondering how that hole would stand up being towed across the water to set up casts and the actual impact of the cast on the flies.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Bob Pauli said:
Dave, Steve, Sean:
To answer your questions:
1. The T-14 pulls the fly under the water. The fly is neutrally buoyant. Before casting, we placed the free [not connected to leader] fly on the water's surface, where it remained. Then we placed it under the surface, where it stayed.

2. Frank is a superb long line [spell: Carron] distance caster and uses a very long top-hand only stroke. His stroke more gently accelerates a fly line than that of folks using shorter, faster strokes, such as underhand. In this case, the water releases the "fly" in a more controlled fashion.

3. The 650 and 750 Skagit are excellent with the T&T 1307. My early recommendation to use a Skagit 450 was based on a mix-up of line containers, and my failure to notice an "overly fat 450," that actually weighed 750 grains! The early 2005 data collected for Spey rods using the 450 were in fact accomplished with a 750 Skagit line. We took several days and reran all the 450 tests to determine that the 750 was indeed used. Please recall that our testing goal was and is to determine the heaviest practical, fishable sink tip a rod/Skagit combination can comfortably handle. A T&T with a Skagit 450 will cast lighter sink tips with ease, and if that is what conditions require, go for it. However, if you want to shake hands with the big guys down deep, you can, with heaver Skagit heads.

Please remember that our test program is not about Skagit casting and casts are not Skagit style. If fact we consider the Skagit cast cast as currently being promulgated limiting. We recognized early in 2005 that Skagit lines are capable of much, much more than [Skagit] casting relatively light [commonly less than 150 grains] sinking tips such as T-14 or LC-13.

We use what partner Tom Keelin calls the "Half Out and Go" casting technique as analogous to Simon's "Splash and Go." The Half Out and Go is a conventional Spey cast with enough back cast energy to lift half the sink tip above the water's surface, followed by an easy forward stroke. One can see that a 750-grain Skagit head back cast with a minor bit of vigor will lift a resting 500-grain BigBoy partially above the water, allowing an easy forward cast. None of this is stressing the T&T1307.
Thanks Bob for the feed back.

Was Frank using his very long top-hand only stroke with the Skagit line?

I think I used your "Fat" 450 with my Sage 6126, which means it should work very well with the 550.

Maybe Mr Vincent might want to rename his Skagit lines, AWCL, or All Waters Casting Lines.
 

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You should not have a problem hitting yourself unless you are using on overly vertical stroke. I only get close to hitting myself when I am trying to cast in bad wind conditions blowing the line onto me.

My comment as the skagit lines overhead is that I feel you are in danger of breaking your rods using the fully belly outside the rod and performing overhead casts. That is too much grains and is going to seriously stress any rod out there. Put that 650 grain head on the T&T 1307 and dump it overhead you are asking for trouble. That was all I was getting at. If you pull the head in then things are probably OK but will not perform as well as the outbound.

-sean
 

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The same problem(perhaps...)

I was trying to reach bottom with my tube. Fly successfully managed it, but I failed to cast it.
I'll give the set up, and perhaps, you tell me what or who was wrong...
Rod-5120
Line-WC 5/6 spey
Leader- 10 Xfastsink poly
Tippet-2 foots 10lb
Fly-on tube 2 gramms weight
There were brushes and trees behind me, I had to waid up to my ...eh(you know what). The only cast I could do was, let me say, a mix of roll cast and underhand. I shot only 1,5 rods length. And there was nothing to say right cast. All was collapsed -leader, line and fly. The frost and snow prevented me to try another line.
So what should be changed?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
Rybkin Alex re your ? re your 5120

I could never get a good cast with the WC 5/6 with any tip or fly with my 5120.

My 5120 does better with the MS 6/7 or 7/8, WC 678 or the Skagit 450 in my hands.

Having said that, if I had to go to a bigger fly and sinking line in a heavy stream, I would use my 6126-3 and the Skagit 450 or 550.
 

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The Skagit 450 works well with my 6126 - I used the floating tip of my 7/8/9 windcutter on it to get a full floating set up and have used as much as 12 feet of T-14 as a sink tip - rod handled it all with perfect performance!
speydoc
 
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