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Dom
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Discussion Starter #1
Not many multi-tip lines out there these days so I was thinking about messing with a few lines to make them as multi-tip all round line.

I got myself small scale. How do I approach this? Lets say I take a full floater that I like on the particular rod and I want to use 15' sink tip of that. I measure 15' and cut the tip portion of the line and weight it. Then simply get a matching weight tip such as Rio DC 15' (choose from 95 to 190 grains).

To me it seems simple enough but wanted to see if there are any other variables that I missed that might affect the performance of the line when its cut of and a matching weight sink tip is attached.
 

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Internet Scientist
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Your sink tip will have a greater density, that's why it sinks. So if it's the same length as the cut floating tip, then it will have to be thinner, maybe a lot thinner, for it to have the same overall weight as the cut floating tip. Which means you'll have a change of diameter at the transition from the remaining line to the new tip. And with a different diameter comes a different moment of inertia, a discontinuity. This might or might not cause a hinging as the cast rolls out. I notice this when I use the straight t-x tips attached to the end of a line, the casts are clunky but still effective. I prefer the tips (e.g. MOW) that have a floating transition to the sinking part, there's less of this hinge-wammo thing at the end of the cast. If I need more t-material I add a "cheater" of sorts to the end of the sinking tip (before the leader), same t-type (and therefore diameter).
 

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Anglish spoken here
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Hello.. Coincidence here. I´ve just done what you´re up to. I´ve tried the SA Short Head MT 8weight line, as well as the Windcutter MT 7/8/9. Didn´t perform very well to me. Wanted something more rearheavy. My absolute (ABSOLUTE) favourite line for my go-to-rod, GIIIe 8136, is the SA Short Head 8weight, 54foot head, 600grain full floater. I recently bought the predecessor, a SA Short Head 8/9weight from a member here. Head was 55foot, at 700grains. Opted for about 46feet, 580grains. Cut about 5 feet from running line, cut, weigh, cut..
Ended at 47feet, 580grain, pretty much spot on. Cut the tip for 15foot lengths, but also to use with 10footers. Went out today, tried the "original" 15 floating tip, to no surprise this was good, 100 foot casts were achieved with a 15foot nylon leader. This line doesn´t have the zzziip of my favourite line, but I believe the running line is a bit heavier on this older 8/9 version.
Replaced the tip with a 10foot, 80grain, type 6 sinker and 4 feet of nylon. Did cast the same length of running line, but the total distance was down to 85feet, accordingly. The type 6 tip is also slightly wobbly, as you might expect. Had to aim a bit higher, but still a bit splashy. Dark came, so I will resume tests tomorrow, using type 2 and 4 tips.
Conclusion?? It can be done, if you find the proper line to start with. MAYBE, domantas, you will see better casts with slighly lighter tips, in type 6 and faster sinkers. I will order such tips, but will have to wait a week for them. I will also start with a AFS Outbound style of line, 38foot head, to try to make that LONGER instead, meaning I will cut for 10foot tips, but try 15footers as well. To make the full choice between 47, 42, 43 and 38foot heads. Winter is coming here, so I hope I´m done before it´s too late..
If I can try the slower tips tomorrow, I´ll post my results here.. Yours borano20
 

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loco alto!
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what you propose will work fine for most shorter lines, say 60' or less

above that, longer belly lines tend to have fine forward tapers. For example, on a long-belly two-hand 8 wt spey line, the forward 15' may only weigh equivalent to a single hand 5 wt line. Many lines with longer forward tapers need to be cut further than 15' to handle a worthwhile sinktip

and for all lines, you can simply fish the floater that you intend to cut, to learn its flight and turnover characteristics, study the line with a micrometer, and make the cut at a location of sufficient mass and suitable taper to achieve the casting characteristics you want
 

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Anglish spoken here
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Hello.. RIO 8weight tips are 109grains at 15´. I cut my 55foot head at 14´from the point, giving a 14´tip (obviously) , at 100 grains. Not considering taper, weight per foot is what you point at for shorter heads, SSpey. Yours borano20
 

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what you propose will work fine for most shorter lines, say 60' or less

above that, longer belly lines tend to have fine forward tapers. For example, on a long-belly two-hand 8 wt spey line, the forward 15' may only weigh equivalent to a single hand 5 wt line. Many lines with longer forward tapers need to be cut further than 15' to handle a worthwhile sinktip

and for all lines, you can simply fish the floater that you intend to cut, to learn its flight and turnover characteristics, study the line with a micrometer, and make the cut at a location of sufficient mass and suitable taper to achieve the casting characteristics you want
agreed. It's very straight forward with heads to 60 - 65 like the delta and delta longs where the tips are all the same length and weight. Beyond that - it may be better to cut at 20 feet for a matched set of tips.
 

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Jim Jones (JD Jones here) is a 'dead on' with this subject.

Your sink tip will have a greater density, that's why it sinks. So if it's the same length as the cut floating tip, then it will have to be thinner, maybe a lot thinner, for it to have the same overall weight as the cut floating tip. Which means you'll have a change of diameter at the transition from the remaining line to the new tip. And with a different diameter comes a different moment of inertia, a discontinuity. This might or might not cause a hinging as the cast rolls out. I notice this when I use the straight t-x tips attached to the end of a line, the casts are clunky but still effective. I prefer the tips (e.g. MOW) that have a floating transition to the sinking part, there's less of this hinge-wammo thing at the end of the cast. If I need more t-material I add a "cheater" of sorts to the end of the sinking tip (before the leader), same t-type (and therefore diameter).
What I know about sink tips you could write on the head of a pin so 'grain of salt' is needed beyond this point.

With rare exception the shooting head/line will have a tip (of some type) off the end. Buy one/cut a line back the 'mass end' of the line has to be equal to or greater than that of the head. A 'Mass in the A$$' sort of thing to transfer energy from line to tip to leader to fly.

Given I watch Jim huck 90'ish foot 'bike chain' cast after cast one must/have to assume he's pretty much got it down. :D (I should be so lucky :saevilw:)
 

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As Steve indicated - you should mic the line to match the diameter of the line to the sink tip you are using - you want the floating section to be thicker than the sink tip so you have enough mass to turn over the tip. I cut up some of my old XLTs that had 80 to 90 foot heads and had to cut them back at around the 24 foot mark
 

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loco alto!
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sufficient mass

weight per foot
we meant the same thing here, with different words

just will emphasize that TAPER at the cut point is almost wholly ignored in these discussions, yet can matter greatly. Fly line turnover accelerates through steep tapers, and slows on flat ones. Being mindful of taper at the cut point can help dial for the weight/length of tip and the fly being thrown.
 

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Hooked4life
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That is excellent info Peter, thanks for the link. I'll be printing it and using it. Very disappointed the old Delta's are gone and hesitant to try the Delta II but at some point I'll be forced to try one.
Try one, you'll like it. ;) {Cue evil voice . . .}

I too was an old Delta fan and looked upon the new ones with a jaundiced eye, but no more. They fly very nicely, even when towing polyleaders. After landing my first fish on one, all reservations disappeared. ;)
 

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Anglish spoken here
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Hello.. OK, some reflections after trying some (around) 15foot tips. They were an inty (Airflo??) and a SA type 2, both very close to the "original" floater. The inty cast great, but not to the same distance as the floater, maybe 6-8 feet shorter. The type 2 wasn´t as fine, felt both heavy and wobbly, lacking still more distance. Not for demo´s, but OK for fishing. Will roam the inventory box for more tips to try, but it will take to next weekend, if it´s mild weather. Should have some 8weight RIO tips rattling around somewhere.. Yours borano20
 

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Not many multi-tip lines out there these days so I was thinking about messing with a few lines to make them as multi-tip all round line.

I got myself small scale. How do I approach this? Lets say I take a full floater that I like on the particular rod and I want to use 15' sink tip of that. I measure 15' and cut the tip portion of the line and weight it. Then simply get a matching weight tip such as Rio DC 15' (choose from 95 to 190 grains).

To me it seems simple enough but wanted to see if there are any other variables that I missed that might affect the performance of the line when its cut of and a matching weight sink tip is attached.
Fred is right JD Jones is the man to talk to about cutting lines and adding tips, I think he has cut more lines and made more sink tips than all the line manufactures put together LOL. and yes he will tell you to buy Al Buhr's book "How to design fly lines" which is a great book and will give you a lot of info. One thing I will add to your shopping list is a Thickness Gauge, I picked up a digital one for $12 and you will need one.
 

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I second getting AL Burhs book you will learn a ton from this.many fly shops carry it.

As long as your sink tip is 20 grains lighter than your main line at its cut (loop) point you will be fine. You will see smooth turn overover get beyond that and your going to experience hinging and other nasty things in the cast. Your level of casting experience also plays into this.
 

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Anglish spoken here
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I second getting AL Burhs book you will learn a ton from this.many fly shops carry it.

As long as your sink tip is 20 grains lighter than your main line at its cut (loop) point you will be fine. You will see smooth turn overover get beyond that and your going to experience hinging and other nasty things in the cast. Your level of casting experience also plays into this.
Hello.. So I found my wallet of "Orvis" tips, all four of them stashed inside. Three, not the floater, is marked "8 WT" on a piece of clear tubing, so I reckon we could guess who made them. They are also colour coded. Being 15footers, they should weigh in at 109grains. So I put them on my pair of scales. Look here: Floater 120grains, inty 118grains, type 3 106grains, type 6 118grains. So IF I bought these for my 9weight line, I´d be casting one 8weight, and 3 (almost) 9weights. Doesn´t help your casting, does it??
The trick to drop down one size for your sinking part is something most people know about. But not Cortland. Ever cast one of their singlehanded 444sinktip lines?? `orrible, that´s what.. Yours borano20
 

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I second getting AL Burhs book you will learn a ton from this.many fly shops carry it.

As long as your sink tip is 20 grains lighter than your main line at its cut (loop) point you will be fine. You will see smooth turn overover get beyond that and your going to experience hinging and other nasty things in the cast. Your level of casting experience also plays into this.

Good tip. Thanks for intel.
 

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Anglish spoken here
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Hello.. OK, some reflections after trying some (around) 15foot tips. They were an inty (Airflo??) and a SA type 2, both very close to the "original" floater. The inty cast great, but not to the same distance as the floater, maybe 6-8 feet shorter. The type 2 wasn´t as fine, felt both heavy and wobbly, lacking still more distance. Not for demo´s, but OK for fishing. Will roam the inventory box for more tips to try, but it will take to next weekend, if it´s mild weather. Should have some 8weight RIO tips rattling around somewhere.. Yours borano20
Hello.. OK, see what you can learn from mistakes. The type 2 tip I cast yesterday wasn´t the light one I thought. I replaced it with my RIOmade type 3 at 110grains, but before I went on to try that combo, I put the type 2 on my pair of scales. OOPS, it was a 170grain tip! Explains the poorer performance, but also learned that it CAN be used. The 110grain type 3 I cast today was just fine. Couldn´t see the (razor??) loops in the dark, but distance was fine,as "presentation". Next out would be a type 6-8 tip, if I can find one here... Yours borano20
 
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