CND vs. Daiwa Lochmor X
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The Diawa that Nobuo is famous for is the Amorphous, not the Lochmor. As I have not cast one I can't really say too much. I know Dana has been nagging Nobuo to get one so he can try it. Apparently they are hard to get - nobody seems to want to get rid of them. Presently I think Nobuo is trying to borrow one - so we can try it!
As for comparing the Diawas to the CND's, I think the action of the Experts and the Customs will be reminiscent of the Diawas. Nobuo specifically wanted the full flexing progressive action that typifies the traditional British doublehanders. However, the CND's are much lighter rods. Any of the British style rods I have cast have felt a little tip heavy to me, they were very powerful but heavy. The CND's have a similar action but are lighter and very well balanced in the hand.
I'm not so sure the Specialists are as easy to categorize. The much higher modulus graphite behaves a little differently. The Thompson Specialist is probably the least like the big British style rods. It is quite a bit quicker than most of Nobuo's other rods. I know that a great deal of the discussion that occurred during the development of the rod involved Nobuo's concern that it was "too fast". I am pleased that he agreed to a compromise that resulted in the beast that the Thompson is.
The Salar is a rod more to Nobuo's specs (and is his personal favourite). It is a little more progressive and "civilized" in its action. I find that when maximum fishing distance on big water is not my primary concern the Salar is also my choice.
The two newest Specialists are also different. The 14'4" Steelhead is an all-round rod capable of handling many different lines and casting styles - as has been discussed here the Forum. The 13'8" Skagit Specialist is different again, it is very much a fullflexing progressive action rod and those who like the feel of the old 9140-4 action love the Skagit.
As for comparing the Diawas to the CND's, I think the action of the Experts and the Customs will be reminiscent of the Diawas. Nobuo specifically wanted the full flexing progressive action that typifies the traditional British doublehanders. However, the CND's are much lighter rods. Any of the British style rods I have cast have felt a little tip heavy to me, they were very powerful but heavy. The CND's have a similar action but are lighter and very well balanced in the hand.
I'm not so sure the Specialists are as easy to categorize. The much higher modulus graphite behaves a little differently. The Thompson Specialist is probably the least like the big British style rods. It is quite a bit quicker than most of Nobuo's other rods. I know that a great deal of the discussion that occurred during the development of the rod involved Nobuo's concern that it was "too fast". I am pleased that he agreed to a compromise that resulted in the beast that the Thompson is.
The Salar is a rod more to Nobuo's specs (and is his personal favourite). It is a little more progressive and "civilized" in its action. I find that when maximum fishing distance on big water is not my primary concern the Salar is also my choice.
The two newest Specialists are also different. The 14'4" Steelhead is an all-round rod capable of handling many different lines and casting styles - as has been discussed here the Forum. The 13'8" Skagit Specialist is different again, it is very much a fullflexing progressive action rod and those who like the feel of the old 9140-4 action love the Skagit.
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Skagit Specialist like 9140-4?!!!
Tyler,
I have both and do not think the Skagit and 9140 are alike at all. The Skagit is much faster. It is more like the Salar and the Steelhead like a shorter thompson, at least to me.
Tyler,
I have both and do not think the Skagit and 9140 are alike at all. The Skagit is much faster. It is more like the Salar and the Steelhead like a shorter thompson, at least to me.
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Not picking on Tyler
just expressing the fact, that to me, the Skagit is like a shorter Salar in action and the Steelhead (for the little I have been able to cast one) more like the Thompson.
None of the CND rods remind me of the 9140-4. Though there was a time when I really liked that rod and still believe it can be a good fishing tool, I much prefer the CND rods I own and am looking for someone to give the 9140-4 a good home.
just expressing the fact, that to me, the Skagit is like a shorter Salar in action and the Steelhead (for the little I have been able to cast one) more like the Thompson.
None of the CND rods remind me of the 9140-4. Though there was a time when I really liked that rod and still believe it can be a good fishing tool, I much prefer the CND rods I own and am looking for someone to give the 9140-4 a good home.
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This is most definitely not true, IMO. It would help if CND listed the weights of their rods on the web site but for some reason they don't.kush said:
I very much agree with Peter's assessments of the Daiwa rods. I won't argue about his view of the relative capabilities of the 8 wt Daiwas and CNDs but I do feel that the Daiwas definitely more than hold their own when cost is taken into account.
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I think the Skagit Specialist is similar to the 9140-4 they differ in the area the Skagit has serious balls the 9140 lacks. Both rods load very deep on gives up on doesn't. I really like my 10151 Sage but love my Salar, while I don't have the timing down yet these rods have so much reserve power its awesome.
I have a Lochmoor X in the 12'6 wt I love the rod for small water and drys. Which CND's are you thinking of? I think the Diawa is "tipper" than the CND's I have cast.
andre
I have a Lochmoor X in the 12'6 wt I love the rod for small water and drys. Which CND's are you thinking of? I think the Diawa is "tipper" than the CND's I have cast.
andre
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BIFF :eyecrazy: POW :whoa: ZAP 
- Holy toilet paper Batman!
Like I said - Nobuo's rod is the Amorphous, not the Lochmor
- I haven't cast the Amorphous, so I can't really
compare it to anything!
My private comment about the Skagit Specialist all along has been that "it is like a 9140-4 that doesn't crap out when you load it.". I have tried to be circumspect about another company's product, but since you pin me down, I have never liked the 9140-4, I think it is a noodle... The Skagit Specialist on the other hand - as Andre so succinctly puts it - has balls. The action will be familiar to people who like the 9140-4 (and there are lots of them out there) until they put the screws to it and the reserve power of the progressive action kicks in - then they will recognize the difference.
- Holy toilet paper Batman!Like I said - Nobuo's rod is the Amorphous, not the Lochmor
- I haven't cast the Amorphous, so I can't really
compare it to anything!
My private comment about the Skagit Specialist all along has been that "it is like a 9140-4 that doesn't crap out when you load it.". I have tried to be circumspect about another company's product, but since you pin me down, I have never liked the 9140-4, I think it is a noodle... The Skagit Specialist on the other hand - as Andre so succinctly puts it - has balls. The action will be familiar to people who like the 9140-4 (and there are lots of them out there) until they put the screws to it and the reserve power of the progressive action kicks in - then they will recognize the difference.
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power
the `heavy salmon' models that i own are heavyweights but so was alli,,they were bought for chinook ;in that i have confidence,other rods bend over the knuckles ,get's old after 15 minutes or so,,,,that's why iv'e two,,kenai here i come!!!;are ya' fishin' for 5 pounders or????????????????just makin' laps:hehe:
the `heavy salmon' models that i own are heavyweights but so was alli,,they were bought for chinook ;in that i have confidence,other rods bend over the knuckles ,get's old after 15 minutes or so,,,,that's why iv'e two,,kenai here i come!!!;are ya' fishin' for 5 pounders or????????????????just makin' laps:hehe:
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Originally posted by kush
However, the CND's are much lighter rods.
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Greg -
I respect your judgement on this, but I can't help but notice the sequence of similar comments you've made and please don't fault me for being curious about the experience that you basing this judgement upon. Please explain...
How many Daiwa and CND rods have you tried? What casts and lines did you try them with?
To your preferences, what is most important in spey rod design light total weight or weight distribution and ratio of weight to casting power?
Do you compare total rod weights to shop or not shop for spey rods as your decision criteria?
I will go dig up the rod weights (except the recently released Skagit, Steelhead and Atlantis) and post them ASAP. Frankly, as the creator of the CND website I didn't think it was all that important provided the rods were adequately light and even surprisingly light for the reserve power they provide, IMHO.
Meanwhile I welcome you to expand upon your comment. I appreciate your feedback.
Juro
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Is there really a comparison?
The Lochmor X is an economy rod that I found for 109 pounds sterling (198 US at current exchange rates). Indeed an excellent deal!
There are many differences for instance it has 7 guides verses the CND Custom's 13, both are all fuji by regulation but the CND has three strip guides alone.
I am not certain I'd consider them in the same category. The CND Expert is not an economy rod per se, but it's a rod that permits the buyer to get an excellent proven design that has been supplanted by three new series in the CND line over the last year (hence the low prices). The expert CND has been around for a long time. The carbon fibers are IM6, which are not as powerful as the IM7 and IM8 cousins (Customs, Specialists) but not lacking at all in sweetness and if 100' casts with a 15ft type8 sinktip is powerful enough, I can say first hand that the 1308 can do that. It's retail cost is $295 US, what I would consider at a different consumer level than the Lochmor, which is priced with other bargain brands. For instance Daiwa's Alltmor rods are very impressive, and in another league entirely from the Lochmor.
Oh BTW - the weight difference? 2 tenths of an ounce in favor of the Lochmor-X. I don't think my 3-yr old niece could tell the difference never mind an adult man.
I wonder how much 6 additional guides weigh? :devil:
The Lochmor X is an economy rod that I found for 109 pounds sterling (198 US at current exchange rates). Indeed an excellent deal!
There are many differences for instance it has 7 guides verses the CND Custom's 13, both are all fuji by regulation but the CND has three strip guides alone.
I am not certain I'd consider them in the same category. The CND Expert is not an economy rod per se, but it's a rod that permits the buyer to get an excellent proven design that has been supplanted by three new series in the CND line over the last year (hence the low prices). The expert CND has been around for a long time. The carbon fibers are IM6, which are not as powerful as the IM7 and IM8 cousins (Customs, Specialists) but not lacking at all in sweetness and if 100' casts with a 15ft type8 sinktip is powerful enough, I can say first hand that the 1308 can do that. It's retail cost is $295 US, what I would consider at a different consumer level than the Lochmor, which is priced with other bargain brands. For instance Daiwa's Alltmor rods are very impressive, and in another league entirely from the Lochmor.
Oh BTW - the weight difference? 2 tenths of an ounce in favor of the Lochmor-X. I don't think my 3-yr old niece could tell the difference never mind an adult man.
I wonder how much 6 additional guides weigh? :devil:
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I think its pretty safe to say that absolute scale weights have limited meaning when swinging a 13-16' lever. Its all in the distribution and feel of that weight along the rod that matters.
Through all of this it would be nice to get a sense of how these brand rods compare, as I've cast a few CNDs but never the Daiwas
Through all of this it would be nice to get a sense of how these brand rods compare, as I've cast a few CNDs but never the Daiwas
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1,771 Posts
Re: Re: Is there really a comparison?
I guess I should not believe pictures....
http://www.sportsmail.ltd.uk/acatalog/infowindows/Game/Rods/DaiwaSalmon/LochmorX.htm
Foolish of me actually, the picture is definitely cut off for space reasons. Serves me right for doing fly-by posts on a busy family obligations day.
Also, I've never actually seen one in real life.
Well back to it now, but I will be looking for that escape opportunity to do some test casting... eggs and milk? Firewood? :devil:
Go ahead and slam me now, I won't be back on line for a few hours. Sean - if he hits below the belt call me on the cell and I will find a cyber cafe :hehe:
over and out
You got me there Peter!peter-s-c said:Juro, where did you learn to count?
My Lochmor X 9 wt. has 12 guides + tiptop with two being strippers and the tiptop is ceramic ring.
0.2 oz is meaningless, I agree. But what it does prove -- the Lochmor Xs are not "a lot heavier" as a lot of people would believe.
I guess I should not believe pictures....
http://www.sportsmail.ltd.uk/acatalog/infowindows/Game/Rods/DaiwaSalmon/LochmorX.htm
Foolish of me actually, the picture is definitely cut off for space reasons. Serves me right for doing fly-by posts on a busy family obligations day.
Also, I've never actually seen one in real life.
Well back to it now, but I will be looking for that escape opportunity to do some test casting... eggs and milk? Firewood? :devil:
Go ahead and slam me now, I won't be back on line for a few hours. Sean - if he hits below the belt call me on the cell and I will find a cyber cafe :hehe:
over and out
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Bake,
Things for consideration, how/where do you intend to use the rod? Warranty, ease of getting warranty work done... All the Diawas domesticallly that I am aware of were purchased from European Dealers. I have a B&W that I always worry about if i should have any breakage issues with. What do you do?
BTW, I once waited for 9 months to have the butt section repaired on a twp hander.
andre
Things for consideration, how/where do you intend to use the rod? Warranty, ease of getting warranty work done... All the Diawas domesticallly that I am aware of were purchased from European Dealers. I have a B&W that I always worry about if i should have any breakage issues with. What do you do?
BTW, I once waited for 9 months to have the butt section repaired on a twp hander.
andre
I have never seen a Daiwa two hander, but I own the Skagit and the Salar. After reading this thread, I weighed both and got 11.42 OZ. on the Salar and 9.55 OZ. on my Skagit. This does not take into account for standard deviation and I've been out on the river with them for the last 4 days.
I just don't think one should compare the CND specialist series to anything. Case in point, my Sage 10150 & 8124, Loop 9140 & 1284, etc. all seem to perform well with just a couple lines. But the Specialist series doesn't seem really give a crap what line you put on it provided that you know and are somewhat familiar with the subtle technique changes required for each line.
I think in the past that rods have been designed around particular lines. I think Nobuo's design and the higher modulus rods can handle them all. Now we have rods whose line use is determined by the individuals level of skill/style/technique or needs of the individual's fishing. In other words, the rod doesn't pick the line, the caster does.
I've run every line I can get my hands on through these two rods and they all work great. I am finding I prefer line a little lighter than what everyone recommends, but when I want to dip into the backbone that's hiding in the butt, it's there and then some.
I can't apply the same standards to the specialist series and I don't think any of us should. These rods don't fit the "norm". I think the full potential of these rods will not be realized until someone designs a specific line for it. Until then, any line on the market plus or minus 3 weights will work. The Specialist series is not like anything we have grown accustomed to. The best analogy I can come up with would be this. You have spent your whole life camping in a tent. Suddenly, your cruising around the world in million dollar motor home towing a Jeep. What the hell were you thinking?
Matt
I just don't think one should compare the CND specialist series to anything. Case in point, my Sage 10150 & 8124, Loop 9140 & 1284, etc. all seem to perform well with just a couple lines. But the Specialist series doesn't seem really give a crap what line you put on it provided that you know and are somewhat familiar with the subtle technique changes required for each line.
I think in the past that rods have been designed around particular lines. I think Nobuo's design and the higher modulus rods can handle them all. Now we have rods whose line use is determined by the individuals level of skill/style/technique or needs of the individual's fishing. In other words, the rod doesn't pick the line, the caster does.
I've run every line I can get my hands on through these two rods and they all work great. I am finding I prefer line a little lighter than what everyone recommends, but when I want to dip into the backbone that's hiding in the butt, it's there and then some.
I can't apply the same standards to the specialist series and I don't think any of us should. These rods don't fit the "norm". I think the full potential of these rods will not be realized until someone designs a specific line for it. Until then, any line on the market plus or minus 3 weights will work. The Specialist series is not like anything we have grown accustomed to. The best analogy I can come up with would be this. You have spent your whole life camping in a tent. Suddenly, your cruising around the world in million dollar motor home towing a Jeep. What the hell were you thinking?
Matt
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the myterious DAIWA
were's ,Simon,he's the one i want to talk to,i purchased a couple,maybe three demo rods of his,there is a world of diff. in the CF98 and the amorphous rods that i have ,the 18's lighter than the 16 amorphous whisker,,,,,,,, like any huge company they have diff. models,just look at the used prices on the altmoor `s',way more than 200 USD,and i'm assuming these are obsolete?,what about the`regal',or others i've seen for sale `over there',Andy Wren was going to dig up some catolouge's for me,,,,,hell Bake,buy em' both,have some fun:devil:
were's ,Simon,he's the one i want to talk to,i purchased a couple,maybe three demo rods of his,there is a world of diff. in the CF98 and the amorphous rods that i have ,the 18's lighter than the 16 amorphous whisker,,,,,,,, like any huge company they have diff. models,just look at the used prices on the altmoor `s',way more than 200 USD,and i'm assuming these are obsolete?,what about the`regal',or others i've seen for sale `over there',Andy Wren was going to dig up some catolouge's for me,,,,,hell Bake,buy em' both,have some fun:devil:
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1,771 Posts
Peter -
I'm back!
You do not need to make and ass of me... let me help you - I do a fine job of that myself!
One knock on your exhuberance for Daiwa though... "casting better" is purely a matter of preference and not something that can be judged by one for another, unless the rod is pure crap in that case enough agree to warrant a general consensus. For instance the St.Croix you mention is gutless to me; the load is not continuous going into almost non-existent reserve power in my hands, but your results must surely differ.
There's truth to my memory being not what it used to be but I thought that was an Alltmor at Muskegon, hence the subtle compliment which you might have missed.
I liked the power the rod provides with that large diameter blank, but it's so fast it makes me wonder if it would be hard to relax and fish with, which is the reason I fish in the first place. I agree with Daiwa, it felt like an overhand rod to me.
In any case, Peter I am laughing at myself for thinking the Lochmoor has seven guides :hehe: What a bonehead!
I'm back!
You do not need to make and ass of me... let me help you - I do a fine job of that myself!
One knock on your exhuberance for Daiwa though... "casting better" is purely a matter of preference and not something that can be judged by one for another, unless the rod is pure crap in that case enough agree to warrant a general consensus. For instance the St.Croix you mention is gutless to me; the load is not continuous going into almost non-existent reserve power in my hands, but your results must surely differ.
There's truth to my memory being not what it used to be but I thought that was an Alltmor at Muskegon, hence the subtle compliment which you might have missed.
I liked the power the rod provides with that large diameter blank, but it's so fast it makes me wonder if it would be hard to relax and fish with, which is the reason I fish in the first place. I agree with Daiwa, it felt like an overhand rod to me.
In any case, Peter I am laughing at myself for thinking the Lochmoor has seven guides :hehe: What a bonehead!
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134 Posts
I'm not sure what "sequence of comments" you are talking about, since I don't think that I've had much to say about the Daiwas. And I didn't make any outlandish claims for them as far as I can tell. I did say that 1) I disagreed that they were much heavier than the CNDs (given their actual weights, the chances are good that they're on par or actually lighter), 2) I think that they're a good value for the money, and 3) I agree with most of Peter's comments, which also were generally circumpsect. So I'm not certain what it is that I said that should concern your interests in CND.
I own two of the Daiwa Lochmor Xs and briefly owned one of the CNDs. I use multi-tip MidSpey lines. I also own three one-handed Daiwas for which I purchased extension handles and use as versatile single and two-handed overhead and spey casting rods on smallish rivers: a 10' 8 wt, 10' 7 wt, and 11'3" 7 wt (lengths w/out the extension handles). I usually use Rio Salmon & Steelhead lines with them.
Peter C pointed me to the Daiwas and I'm glad he did, but I do not sell them or have any interest in doing so. I'm not a good fly caster. I've tried other spey rods; my favorite by far was a Hardy that I was able to try last spring. If it didn't have a stratospheric price tag I would have bought it on the spot: it fit me very well. I'm hoping to pick up one or two eventually. I suspect that a few of Bob Meiser's rods are similar, tho, and I'm looking for a chance to cast one of them at some clave or other next spring/summer.
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