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Discussion Starter #1
Hey Guys,

This is the first time for me in the forum.
I have appreciated reading your messages.

I live now in Maine and have enjoyed fishing our striper runs with an 8wt. single handed rod. I have used this rod in the past on redfish and speckled trout near Corpus Christi where i lived in the past. It is a lot of fun fishing warmer water and finding fishing on extended flats like you would find in the Carribean.
Hope to go back there this late fall.

Corpus Christi bay is famous for its Windsailing... because of the winds. It is there that I learned to double haul, but I am ready for a major investment in the new technology you all have helped to inform me about. I have been investigating the purchase of an upper end double-handed rod.

I talked with Juro the other day thinking about one of the CND Custom or Expert rods and learning spey casting for some tight shore situations on our big rivers (Saco) coupled with a line for open water overhand casting. He recommended the Atlantis 1111.

Since I have been reading about this rod I am impressed. The only thing is that it is big for the size of fish I commonly see as I only wade in areas where there are mostly schoolies ~20lbs.
I guess the reason to consider buying this rod is its casting potential to throw big flies long ways in the wind but then would it be overkill on playing schoolies?

Tonight I read in the forum in an older thread where Juro was talking of CND plans to market smaller rods in this same IM8 class blank: the "1099" and a "searun" they were called.
These may be more what I am looking for.
Does anyone know if and when any of these rods will make it to the market?
Any other suggestions?

Thanks

Mike

Also, I have been talking with Bob Meiser about his "switch rod" series (S2H106) which is a real possibility in an 8/9.
 

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I'm with you on this, I'm waiting to see what the lighter
Juro/CND overhead 2-handeds look like. After that, I
may decide that the Atlantis is the ideal after all, or one
of Bob Meiser's 10.5 ft switch rods that a fair number of
people here seem to like. While I definitely am against using
sub-weight tackle, like you I *think* that I would prefer
to use something in the 8-9 wt range. But after I actually
cast a few of these rods I may decide otherwise :)
 

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FISHIN' FREELANCER
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curious

wondering why no one speaks of the loomis 11.5' 2 hand rod for 8/9 lines. seems as though it would be a fairly capable tool. is there something i'm missing?

giving some thought to trying for muskies on the fly (again) and possibly a 2 hand rod. if they are not as consuming to overhead cast as a single, and with the addtional length of a 2 hand grip they should snuggle nicely underarm for a double retrieve.

i like the look of the atlantis although i think it to be somewhat overkill for what i would be doing. there are times when it could be a great benefit though, like a heavy fish in/near submerged timber.

the meiser rods are appealing for sure, although i could not tell how long the rear grip is. the fixed grip being 100.00 option. i don't know what length it would be either.

waiting, studying. SG
 

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When I fish Maine for stripers, I always use a 10-weight single-handed rod. I tried and 8-weight, but, for me, it was too much work to cast large flies in a strong wind with a rod that light. A 10-weight line makes casting much easier, at least for me. I suspect, because I haven't actually used one, that a 10-weight two-hander would be much more appropriate for casting large flies into the Maine wind, especially when casting into the surf where the wind always seems to present a thornier problem than when fishing from a boat.

Most of my fishing is done on the Kennebec, but I see no reason why fishing at the mouth of the Saco would be much different.

BTW, I fish a 450 grain Teeny-type line. An 8-weight can handle it, but you have to be very, very careful.

My $0.02.
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Hello Padre -

I think if all you were ever to find were schoolies the 1111 would be overkill... but you mentioned 20# fish and there is plenty of sport in the Atlantis for anything 10# or up.

Compare it to the typical spinning rod being used by gear guys on the beach... it's still half those rods if that, and is made to load with a flyline with a real sweet spot.

Besides, as a striper hound myself I believe the way one fishes has a lot to do with the percentage of shorts verses legals one gets. The Atlantis tends to make me seek the bigger prize... because it can as the joke goes. The single-hander has it's place, but there is a limit to what it can handle. With all due respect, most single-handed fly guys on the beach are fishing with schoolie methods. A schoolie rod with a schoolie fly == a schoolie on the line.

The Atlantis opens new doors to pursuit of big fish by handling bigger flies for longer casts and puts more fighting power in the hands without being heavy to use or being too long to comfortably handle. It's the angler's thinking that catches the bigger fish with consistency, this is just a tool to encourage that kind of thinking. You don't see live-liners catching schoolies; that tells me a lot.

In fact I've really tilted the scale upward for my personal catch record in the legal to schoolie ratio, especially for a shore angler. I believe I had only one outing in 2003 where I fished (verses guided) and didn't get at least one legal sized fish or slammer blue on a fly from shore, and that was a schoolie-fest day in the spring migration where I stopped counting at 30-something fish (remember that day Neal?). Good thing I had my single hander that day, it was all schoolies :devil:

On the other end of the spectrum, I have had days where I caught over two dozen legal fish in a day, with fish exceeding 40" in the mix. Minimum 100' casts were necessary, 120' was better, 130' rockin' and 140' you're the king... or else you had to run up to 300 yards trying to get the fish when they came within reach. With the big gun I could stand on a nice berm and fire away to the target.

As far as sporting, keep in mind that this rod is rated for standard WF 11/12 lines not spey lines, and in spey line ratings it would be more like a 7/8 or an 8/9 if you use the same grain weights. Because it's first and foremost an overhand casting rod the range of grains is much broader than a spey casting tool, simply because overhand casting is more tolerant than spey casting. There is plenty of sport in a 20# fish on the 1111. But it will land the 40# as well, or so I hope to prove this year.

My recommendation for the Atlantis was primarily for coastal striper fishing situations, for brushy cut New England banks I would think the 13' 8/9 Expert or Custom or better yet the Skagit Specialist would be the ticket for spey casting the Saco.

Bob Meiser's switch rod would be a great choice, and I haven't tried the Loomis but the numbers sound good and I hope to give it a try soon at one of the conclaves.

So many rods so little time!
 

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Shotgunner, Greg...

The lower grip of the 106 is generally around 5.5", but because all of the 106s can be custom made, I can adjust grip lengths, both upper and lower (to a certain degree) to meet anglers needs....And the rod comes standard with a fixed lower grip....No extra charge.

My website now has new base prices for the 106s, you may have been looking at old info...Not sure where the $100.00 came from.

Some anglers will opt for the inter-changeable lower grip on the 106s for various reasons, but usually in the lighter line weights:
5/6 to 7/8 wts

...As the advantage in the heavier line weights from 9/10 to 11/12 is to use them as two-handers most of the time.

The 8/9 wt. is really a sweet-heart rod because its applications are so very diverse....Inherent with it's line weight.

...But in reality it does have it's limitations....As does any rod.

I will say this: The 106 8/9 has a long history of defeating fish well into the 40 pound range....Both fresh and salt....But fish size/weight is really only a part of the formula that determines the right rod for the application.

Simply put...An 8/9 weight 106 will efficiently deliver line only within it's capabilities....Again...This is true of any rod.

For example: If I were to stand in a mid-thigh surf with a bunch of "steamers" rolling at at me, I'd feel pretty silly with the 106 8/9.

That's when I'd want some more grainage capability....Like the Atlantis or an up sized 106, a 12x12 T&T or more.

But....If I were fishing the "Inside" like the Sacto Delta on the West coast or most estu-arian, and flats enviornments of the Atlantic, I'd say the 8/9 106 from a deck, kayak, or reeds will do just fine....It's all realitive.

I think that the biggest issue here is not the rods length or line weight, but it's capaplilties...And the anglers savy to determine what is best for his/her fishing enviorment.

There is not a doubt in my mind that the Atlantis will fill it's nich...And will do so with authority.

But like any rod, it will have it's perameters of maximium capabilities... As will all of my rods, or any others.

Ultimatly it is up to the anglers that have access to the diversity of rods and lines that will decide which marriages will work the best for their specific environments. This is true on all waters, and all angler/rod marriages.

That's what's beauty about what's happening in the two-handed realm.

Many anglers now have an entirely new option.... And it's not just anadromous "Spey Guys".

Shotgunner,

I've caught some mighty fine River Muskies on the Chip, Flambeau, and Black in North Central Wisconsin on the 9/10 and 11/12 switchers....But I've snuck in a little 14'6"~ 10/11 action as well...Because I needed to.

In my opinion... Literally any angler that will find that the two-handed fly rod will offer them a fishing advantage is on top of the game. Whether they use 10'6", 11', 16' rods in length, or 5 wts to 15 wts is really no matter.

What we do with this advantage as anglers is our disgression...

But anglers by nature are an inovative lot...Me thinks that the full potential for two-handed fly rods in a big picture is still in its infancy !

So speaking from a broad perspective ?

CNDs, GLX 11.5 for 8/9s, Meiser 106s... Whatever.

...We as anglers all have some really cool options for two-handed presentation now available in our our fly fishing portfolio....And whats just as important, we now have lines available for these rods readily available that will put this diversity to work....And more coming all the time.

What we as anglers do with this diversity is up to us... And the FORUMS format is an excellent vehicle to present, share these thoughts, and educate the whole.

****************************************************

Whew....!!!

I think I just officially "Went Off" on a full-on two-handed mind meld !!!

...Probably won't do this to often, but I think the cause is worthy!


Kinda fun to share passions .....Meiz
 

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I am with Dr. Meiser 100%:

But anglers by nature are an inovative lot...Me thinks that the full potential for two-handed fly rods in a big picture is still in its infancy !
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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One would have to discount the river spey casting community in order to qualify this statement, but I know that the statement "big picture" meant just that - outside of the river spey zealot community to which I also belong.

Beyond the river banks, I am confident that we haven't even hit a single percentage point in terms of number of users. In fact it's something in the order of one out of every several hundred perhaps in the saltwater scene.

As a zealot for the application of double-handed rods beyond the salmon and steelhead river for almost a decade, my personal feeling is that it was the lack availability of the right tool that held this back.

Sure there were rods that could do the job, but they were prohibitively priced or not suited to the task in terms of length, softness, weight, handle design, balance, casting power, etc.

The difference in the air if you ask me is that people are now designing rods specifically for this purpose instead of it being an after-thought or an also-ran.

Let the games begin!

2HandTheSalt said:
I am with Dr. Meiser 100%:

But anglers by nature are an inovative lot...Me thinks that the full potential for two-handed fly rods in a big picture is still in its infancy !
 

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FISHIN' FREELANCER
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"I think that the biggest issue here is not the rods length or line weight, but it's capaplilties...And the anglers savy to determine what is best for his/her fishing enviorment". orig posted by Robert Meiser, 01/13

mr. meiser, your quote is food for more thought. please exscuse my misquote on the grip price.

i new that i had read somewhere here that you are no stranger to large muskies on fly tackle. i hope to hit that mark as well eventualy.

i had never considered a two hand overhead rod until reading several threads/posts here on the forum. there are advantages pointed out that are definatly appealing to me.

"There is plenty of sport in a 20# fish on the 1111. But it will land the 40# as well, or so I hope to prove this year". orig posted by juro, 01/12

juro, this quote by you goes quite a way for me in understanding the something of the rod and its qualifications. the numbers could be relevant as well. the former, well within reach & hope. the latter, probably somewhat of a pipe dream, but definatly possible.

big thanks to you both for the additional useful information. SG
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Shotgunner,

While mouthin' off from an avid striper angler/guide's perspective I hope I didn't create the wrong impression. Just to be clear I would equate the "sportiness" of the rod to be about equivalent to most 8/9wt rated spey casting rods, or similar in fighting power to the now discontinued 10wt RPLX from Sage, maybe even the 9wt RPLX (once again in terms of sportiness which I would define as thrill factor with a fish on).

Put it this way - any striper that can't be enjoyed on this rod is no prize on a single hander either ;)

In other words a 6-8# fish is scrapper, a 10-15# fish is sporting, a 20# is a very good test, 30# digs into it's hill-climbing gears and 40# is probably about it's limit - I can't say for sure as I haven't hit that milestone yet (but they have been in the vicinity where I've fished).

I have often enough felt that sense of desperation with my old trusty single hander bent to the cork and 100 yards of backing slipping over Big Girl Bar with a 40" submarine in hyperdrive heading for Portugal - feeling totally helpless. Nothing sporty about that feeling.

It sure isn't a schoolie rod by any means but any good fish is a lot of fun and if you hook a trophy fish you're chances are good.

Take care and hope we can hook up sometime!
 

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Hey Shotgunner,

Oh Hot Dang..... I do love river Muskies on a fly.

With a slight cringe on my brow...I'd say even more then Steelies...};^)....!

It's a whole different world on a Muskie River.

Muskies by nature are very teritotorial on rivers, and the same fish will haunt he same lairs season after season.

I grew up in Northern Wisconsin... around Park Falls, and as a grade schooler used to spend Summers fishing the little spring feeders for tiddler Brookies that fed into the Flambeau and the Chip. It was always a fair bet that you'd hook a few bigger mainstem Brookies at the mouths of these little creeks as they entered the river.

One afternoon while busting through the tag alder to get at the mouth of one of these creeks, I spied the little sand bar at mouth, to see if it held any nice Brookies.

In it's stead was a monster Musky finning in the sand hole, almost filling the holes capacity with its bulk....Very impressive, so I had a smoke and a sit-down to watch what it was up to.

I spent most of the afternoon watching this beauty ocassionaly burst out from it's lair in a tumultuous fury of wakes and water spray to shanghigh un-suspicious cruise-by Brookies in the pound and half range.

It was a mezmerizing scene to watch this beautiful fish finning in a gin clear, shaded little pocket while hidden in the alder
only a few feet away...I've never forgotten it. And I was equally impressed by the brutal authority with which this fish slammed those Brookies.

Muskies are awesome fish !!!

I still return to this same water as often as possible...Try to at least every other year or so, and this creek mouth is still home to Mr. Musky....And have lured a few away from that snug little lair with big swung Dace patterns or Mickey Finns.

Perfect spey presentation water, and a superb gamefish to pursue with this technique.

I do most of these rivers with a Yak now, as my old Cheesehead homey's have gotten rid of their canoes. But those rivers are still just as beautiful as ever, and if anything... Because of good management, the Musky poulation has vastly improved over the past 20 years, and gotten bigger.

Lake of the Woods, and the Quetico/Boundry Waters is another fine example of good trophy Musky management....And again all great water for two handers.

Soooo....I still hold my original statement as that the two handed rod is still in it's infancy... In BOTH fresh and salt water.

There are so many warm water game fish species out there awaiting the double handed fly, it boggles the mind.

Far beyond the nich realm of anadromous species....And puts a big ole grin on my face just knowing that guys are now starting to realize it.

Anyways....I gotta get to rod building.

Just got an order for a two hander for John Day Smallmouth...};^)

Meiz
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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I stand enlightened! Great stuff Meiz, makes me think about spring again :rolleyes:

I hate looking out the kitchen window and seeing that damn thermometer needle in the minus!
 

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"Sing"
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I'm inspired ...

Great story, Bob.

I'm now inspired to bring my spey rods back to Malaysia on my next trip home.
... ya, warm water fish ....


-Sing
 

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lines for CND Atlantis

Juro,

Can you please talk about the lines you would suggest for surf casting with the Atlantis. I surf the points and beaches between Santa Barbara and San Diego, with the ocasional trip down to Baja. This rod would be a nice addition to my surfboard quiver.
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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That's a wild thought, surfboard flyfishing. But I guess not too wild out your way, I actually have a friend from Boston who does that on Cape Cod!

There is a short answer and a long answer to this question. If you just want a line quickly and don't need options, I would recommend any saltwater line that has enough grains to load it and is not too long of a head for strip retrieving flies. I've found this to be in the range of 450-600 grains over 30-40 ft. For instance, the Wulff tarpon lines have a 30ft head and come around 450 grains. This is well under what the rod can handle, but it does make for easy casting between 100 and 120ft with a very well behaved front taper that Wulff is known for. Some might find it a little light for the rod, and it doesn't have a color change to tell you where the head starts and the running line begins.

Another fine line for this rod is the Hardy Mach I, a salmon line that will let you overhand cast or spey cast in tight quarters. The 9/10 is light for it but has the right length head (44') and taper which makes the rod a goo finesse tool, the 10/11 is the right grains for the rod but the head is too long 52'. This line comes in floating, intermediate and sinking.

I would imagine that since there is a broad range of grain weights in similarly rated lines, there is a 14wt line out there that is good for the rod - grains/length being the only important thing, not the number on the box.

Since whole lines are so limited, my recommendation to you would be to load it with shooting heads. This will eliminate the need for extra spools on the surf board and let you carry every option for heads in your cargo pockets. The Airflo heads in 12wt really load the rod nicely and their running line is very nice too. Rio makes the slickshooter which is amazing for distance, I even like the braided mono although it's not ideal for fishing it casts a mile.

A good starter kit would be:

Running line (25-35 # .03x diam)
Airflo 12wt 35ft shooting head (500+ grains) in floating, intermediate and TI7 or some subset thereof depending on your priorities.

The only problem with shooting heads is getting the loop connections to be compact enough to strip into the guides without hanging up. The airflo factory loops are fantastic and you can make a very small loop if you make your own braided loop connectors with a splicing tool. This loop technique is the key to using shooting heads with strip retrieve fisheries like ocean gamefish like.

A braided loop splicer is only about $2 US at any fly shop, and having the control to make the loop the size you want is well worth it.

I put leather/vinyl repair glue on the braided loops just to give it some supple body while getting rid of any hinging.

There is plenty of room for discovery in the search for the perfect line, and not all applications will call for the same one.

Do you use floating, interm. sinking or some combination?
 

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Lines for Atlantis

Juro,

Thanks for the all the great info...but really I do not actually fish off my surfboards. That would be wild ! However over the years I have used my 8 wt steelhead single hand rod with a full collection of shooting heads to match tide / swell / wind conditions.

I can't tell you how many times I have seen big schools of bait just outside the breaking waves ( beyond my casting range with my single handed rod ) and the fish were going off. I often thought a two hander might reach the action. It's cool to paddle over and get a close view of the action. That is as long as "whitey" does not show up.

As the water warms up this spring / summer and the fish start moving in, I'm thinking of adding the two hander to my beach set up. I think I would start with the shooting heads w/ int running line. That set up would allow me to change to match the conditions.

Nothing finer than a dawn patrol surf for an hour or two then paddle in and rig up up for another hour or so of fly casting in the surf. It just does't get any better that that !!
 

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Lines for Atlantis

Juro,

Thanks for the all the great info...but really I do not actually fish off my surfboards. That would be wild ! However over the years I have used my 8 wt steelhead single hand rod with a full collection of shooting heads to match tide / swell / wind conditions.

I can't tell you how many times I have seen big schools of bait just outside the breaking waves ( beyond my casting range with my single handed rod ) and the fish were going off. I often thought a two hander might reach the action. It's cool to paddle over and get a close view of the action. That is as long as "whitey" does not show up.

As the water warms up this spring / summer and the fish start moving in, I'm thinking of adding the two hander to my beach set up. I think I would start with the shooting heads w/ int running line. That set up would allow me to change to match the conditions.

Nothing finer than a dawn patrol surf for an hour or two then paddle in and rig up up for another hour or so of fly casting in the surf. It just does't get any better that that !!
 

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Mule Padre, Bob Meiser

I own Bob's 7/8 and 9/10 switch rods, and there is no way that I would take his 7/8 Striper Fishing in the California Delta or on my local Napa River for late fall or winter striper fishing from a boat.

First is the problem of wind casting with a large fly and the need for sinking tips like the Rio 350 grain. A low wind day on the Delta is something around 20 mph. The 9/10 Switch rod is the rod for late fall/winter Striper fishing from a boat. It handles the heavy lines, big/heavy flies and the wind. Then you can get the big guys up to the boat to get the boca grip on them and then release them.

Also, the lighter rod runs the chance of killing the fish in the name of sport. The 9/10 enables you to get that fish in that critical 1#/minute. If you go more, the fish will probably die from lactic acid build up.

Many of the guides on the Sacramento River and the Feather River in the fall Chinook Salmon runs will not allow clients to fish with smaller than a ten weight rod. The eight and nine weights end up killing the fish from the prolonged battle.

I have been testing Bob's new Salt Water, S2H134910, his 4 pc. 13' ~ 9/10 wt. I have yet to get it to the ocean due to winter storms. However, it is a great rod for standing not wading on the shore of a river and overhead casting a Rio 350 striper line or my new SA 10 weight striper line 80 to 110 foot out into the river. Actually this weekend, I was double spey casting it 80-90 plus feet with either stripper line. This exciting new rod will probably be my main river rod for the big salmon and steelhead in the winter when they are running and holding deep. Bob will be building an extra tip for this type of fishing.

This new saltwater rod beaches a 25 inch 5-6 pound striper in a manner of minutes from the shore. The fish have no problem of swimming away when released.

I have ordered one of these great rods from Bob. I can't wait to get it to the ocean and deep water fishing for steelhead and next year's King Salmon run on the California and S. Oregon rivers.

However, it will be too long for a boat rod, and I will stick with my 9/10 Switch rod for fishing from a boat in the Delta or a local river for the big fish in the late fall and winter.

The 7/8 Switch rod is great for the late spring and early summer schoolies 2-5 pound fish. For the really early spring schoolies, I will use my 5/6 switch rod. Most of these fish are 1 to 4 pounds and should be a blast with the 5/6 rod.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Grandpa

Very insightful, your comments in argument for a heavy/shorter rod on stripers.

My home waters are the coastal waterways here in Maine where stripers work the bait fish in the rivers and along the coastal jetties and shorewaters. We fish them wading and from boats so all your points are relevant here as well.

Regarding rods, I have been researching for a couple of months for a versatile rod that has the potential to load fast an overhead shooting line and comfortably, as possible, make longer headed spey type casts. (That question got this thread started). For a time I was leaning towards Bob's 'switch' series and Juro’s Atlantis and still have not ruled out either of their rods for the future.

Saltwatering two-handers is a design problem that seems to be in the forefront of modern two-handed rod development. With the likes of companies like CND (11’ -11wt model ), T&T's (12-12) and, as you say Bob Meiser (10’-6 'switch' line) targeting the salt water market with their creative rod designs. All seem to me to be trying to answer the challenge of balancing new broader speed and taper design with shorter rod length for us saltwater /striper “affecionados” out there.

I think that the challenge will continue to produce healthy competition and will not only lead to better design and technology but, also competitive pricing..

I have come to the conclusion that we consumers presently still have to compromise a bit to one side or the other depending on what we want. You make some good points Grandpa and I feel the technology is getting there for a rod that will be light for schoolies yet handle humanely (as you argue) heavier fish. But let me share what I have found on the market to meet my needs in a surprisingly strong 8 wt. spey class rod, for whatever it be worth...

After researching and talking to some of the guys in the forum who have interest as well, I think I have found a fair compromise in a lightweight but strong rod at a surprising price. The rod is one of the discontinued (to be re-continued in another line) UK Daiwa models which are now on close-out in some tackle shops in the UK: the Lochmor-X 12-6” 8wt. By the way, thanks to all of you who responded (Andre, Seamoose, Peter, Dennis, Carl...)to my inquiries. I did find one.

It is a fast action tapered IM6 blank weighing in at 7.6 ozs, a fair middle ground between both strength and lightness. It is interesting to note that the Scott 'ARC' 1287/3 7wt (12'8'') comes in at 7.9 oz!

Daiwa gets a good strength to weight ration by having a bit larger blank diameter so this is a slight drawback for the longer rod in heavy winds, but it has the power to throw a heavy head for big flies. However it seems a fine compromise to me in order to facilitate the spey casting I need to do with it in places.

Of interest is the folowing review of the rod.
Peter (peter-s-c) who has a couple of Daiwas, reported in a recent e-mail his review of this rod in order to help me line it:

"About the X 8 wt. -- you'll probably find that a regular WF 11 wt. or 12 wt. will be needed for a decent load. I was overhead casting a Delta Long 8/9 on the 8 wt. that weighted in at 630 grains and it managed it pretty well. If you're going for a regular WF line, then get a 12 wt. I think a line around 400-450 grains will be the ideal load for it, though it can handle much heavier lines. The X 8 wt. can spey cast very well with either a Delta 8/9 or a Delta Long 8/9. You should be able to manage comfortable spey cast distances out to about 100' and overhead in the 130' range."

So at $220 (freight incl.) it will hold me over for now. :p

Mike

p.s. anybody out there from my area that will touch bases with me about our waters?
 
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