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Hopeless Romantic...
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I have been reading statements here for quite some time that are entirely false, not in my humble opinion, but in the facts of casting , albeit somewhat advanced casting-
So here's my take:
I here guys say that it is easier to cast with no back cast with shorter rods and skagit lines.
This is absolutely FALSE !!!!... Both will work, but the short stick and skag are not easier by a long shot, and I'll bet the farm, that you can't throw the skag and short stick near as long as you can the bigbellie and long stick with way less effort in this scenario...
A shorter Rod and head get's your gear closer to the bank and the crap behind you are trying to avoid. Think about it fellas! A longer rod with a mid head( CND GPS or short head like a delta), and a skip cast with the anchor placed out in the river and off your right, down river shoulder, ( Yes, breaking all the rules that wise men say you can't do in the spey cast) will give you more leverage, clearance, and ability to cast with your back against the wall, much farther than a Skagit ever will, been there, done it with both, it isn't even debatable-The longer stick gives you more distance to place your stuff away from the bank behind you, and more leverage and power to vault it out during the cast. It's simple physics and the ability to know how to perform the cast, nothing more, nothing less. The longer the rod, the better when your arce is against the willows if you want any distance out of the cast-

As to a "Skip" cast (That's the name I heard here once that sounded similar to the cast I learned, but I have no true name for it...) This is a great cast for this application, not the only one, but a dam good one that I stumbled on by accident-
I really don't know what it's proper name is, but I learned it by finishing a cast one day that I had set my anchor on incorrectly. My anchor fell yards short, and was on the down river side off my right shoulder while throwing a left hand up single spey. You set the anchor out farther than normal and off the"wrong side" in this case. As you rip the forecast, and I say "Rip" because this is no lazy, take your time cast, it's aggressive and you need the line speed and power to rip the extra stick off the water and clear the anchor. You need to bail out with the rod tip sweeping slightly down river, so you make clearance for the anchor to roll out from under all your line and not create a tailing loop. It aint child's play, it's a tough cast to execute until you practice it and get it. Once you do, it's incredible. I have backed into the willows until they were touching my backside, to see if I could do it in that scenario, and yes, it works, and you can throw is a damn long way...
If you aren't going to put in the effort to learn to cast w/ your non-dominant hand up during a single spey w/ the river flowing down from your left shoulder, forget about all of this unless you are on the other side of the river...Not saying you wont stumble into something new and great in casting tech. but this specific deal wont apply unless you can throw a powerful single from either side of the river. I throw it best with my left hand up though I'm right handed, your gig may vary from mine.
I know for sure, this is WAY easier to execute with my 16' rod than my 14'er...Good luck executing this cast for any distance with a skag, you won't be able to clear the anchor...If you do( You wont, the line stick and skag mass won't allow you to:rolleyes:), I wanna know how you did it So I can use it on my winter skag rig!
Let the debate begin, but there is really no debate to be had, it is what is. It's simple physics... Think about it;)
 

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Pullin' Thread
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Finally, someone tells the truth about mid-to long-belly lines being able to cast to fishing distances when backed-up against the bank or other obstruction.
 

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BULL DOG!!!!
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Finally, someone tells the truth about mid-to long-belly lines being able to cast to fishing distances when backed-up against the bank or other obstruction.
Amen:cool:
 

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Hopeless Romantic...
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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Yea, I'm amazed at how many folks don't actually try this stuff on the river, they read the opposite here, and take it for gospel, then spew it back up on threads here over and over again...What a huge mistake-
Like I say, don't believe me, take it to the river and prove it to your self;)
 

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All Tangled Up
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Somebody's been into the eggnog.....but I'll bite.

albeit somewhat advanced casting-
Well, this is sort of a key point, isn't it?

As well as, when you compare a long rod/long head system, and advocate the advantages of the long rod, comparing to a short rod, short head system, you are mixing two confounding factors. All other things being equal, a shorter head requires less space for the D-loop. simple physics. The extent to which you can marginalize the impact of that trade off is to a great degree a measure of casting skill. My skills are certainly not to the point I don't care about that trade off and I don't think I'm in the minority.
 

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Yup, it's about time-;)
I am sure rick will be along soon to tell you all you are wrong fishmhard ;). I use GPS, Delta long, Hardy Mach 65, NextcastFF70, PowerSpey and even Rio GrandSpeys and original XLT's with rods ranging from 13' to 14' and do not have a problem casting with limited back casting room. The cast I use the most in tight situations is the double spey, Many years ago Simon Gawesworth showed me how to throw the anchor out towards the middle of the river and it makes it easy to form your D loop in front of you and off goes the line.;)
 

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Hopeless Romantic...
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Discussion Starter #7
Somebody's been into the eggnog.....but I'll bite.



Well, this is sort of a key point, isn't it?

As well as, when you compare a long rod/long head system, and advocate the advantages of the long rod, comparing to a short rod, short head system, you are mixing two confounding factors. All other things being equal, a shorter head requires less space for the D-loop. simple physics. The extent to which you can marginalize the impact of that trade off is to a great degree a measure of casting skill. My skills are certainly not to the point I don't care about that trade off and I don't think I'm in the minority.
You don't read very carefully;)

I am sure rick will be along soon to tell you all you are wrong fishmhard ;). I use GPS, Delta long, Hardy Mach 65, NextcastFF70, PowerSpey and even Rio GrandSpeys and original XLT's with rods ranging from 13' to 14' and do not have a problem casting with limited back casting room. The cast I use the most in tight situations is the double spey, Many years ago Simon Gawesworth showed me how to throw the anchor out towards the middle of the river and it makes it easy to form your D loop in front of you and off goes the line.;)
Dick, the last sentence is the key to the whole deal! Thanks for noticing!
I'm sure Rick is mixing a big batch of cool aide right now so he will have plenty for the party! :chuckle:
 

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All Tangled Up
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I The cast I use the most in tight situations is the double spey, Many years ago Simon Gawesworth showed me how to throw the anchor out towards the middle of the river and it makes it easy to form your D loop in front of you and off goes the line.;)
I can do that cast too, as well as others not as widely known, but I don't pretend that I don't have to make adjustments to the cast that are not necessary with more backcast room, or, with a short skagit head. Those adjustments do not come for free. Though I could be mistaken about the skagit part, since I don't fish short heads too much anymore. I would also ask - foolish inconsistencies etc. etc. - what you think is so special about the double spey in this context.

And as far as 70' heads on 13' rods...with no backcast room...good for you, but, what are you trying to prove, exactly?
 

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To a point...

Fishing a floater and medium to small flies...its all a no brainer and always has been. Set your anchor where it needs to be to make the cast, pivot the cast off of that point and go. Tons one can do to beat the brush. Works with singles, square cutting a single goes miles to solving the brush issue, simple moves you can do with your snake (a figure 8 of sorts to set the anchor WAY OUT THERE) and doubles too. However none of it is as 'pretty' as a clean cast.

But the game changes when it comes to sink tips. Especially tips with big to very big flies. Whether a big 3/0 AJ or a 2" aluminum temple dog tube with the wing being 6" long...all the monkeying about with anchor and rod angles goes out the window with me.

Give me a 45' nextcast with 15' tips. If that is still too long it will be a scandi head. Even a skagit.

Much rather pick the right tool for the job than repeatedly hit my forehead with a brick wall. A good friend dropped a little cliche the other day...The lesson will be repeated until it is learned. This applies to all things in life, not just recreational fishing.

There was a time in my life when actual long bellies...you know lines with head lengths 95'+ were to be used for everything in all situations. Then one day you wake up and realize that no matter how hard you try, they just don't get the job done when faced with certain situations. They types of situations where a nextcast 45' or an actual scandi and even that skagit head runs circles around such lines. The lesson will be repeated until it is learned.

Life isn't always a private Idaho. With wide open pools and long floating line casts. You may wake up one day and find yourself knee deep in a glacial river in Feb or March, fishing the outside bends under the canopy where a short, heavy and fast sinking tip with big weighted leech is going to be your ticket.

There is a point in time where certain rigs are simply the better choice, no matter what. Not talking about those who want to fish a certain rig or learn how far to push stuff (go ahead, be hard headed if you already know better but choose to ignore it...the lesson will be repeated until it is learned). Or some that may have physical limitations forcing their hand. It is best to keep an open mind, push the envelope of what you can get away with (talking about monkeying around with the anchors and rod angles and timing and whatnot) and stay a student of the sport.
 

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I'm back:):):) Still waiting for the cool aide to brew!!!

Fishm I actually like your idea and think you likely have some good points but give me that 12 footer or even a 10.5 footer with the short head when I am up against the bank and low overhanging trees are out over the river over my head - but with your 16 footer, it is probably strong enough that it can just rip through those overhanging limbs with no issues:)

WD - you wouldn't even be able to do a double in some of the places I fish

Happy new year to all on SP!!!! Let's hope our drought is over here and the fish can again get back to the waters to spawn!!!!
 

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Hooked4life
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Good luck with this one. I gave up trying quite some time ago.

My zero room cast is the bent D single. Basically a continuous motion cast where the D is cast parallel to the current with a lot of energy and the anchor is smacked into the water well out into the river, followed by a continuous motion, roundhouse forward stroke. It totally violates the 180 rule, but if there's enough tension/energy in the D, it works.

It works with floaters, sinktips, and sinkers, big flies or small (hint: continuous motion).
 

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Talk is cheap :D

What I'd like so see is videos of Ed Ward and Simon Gawesworth (or fishmhard and Rick J) standing with their backs three feet from a sheer wall or under a dense canopy of overhanging branches six feet off the surface of the water.

And it would be ideal if these videos contained some useful information about how to proceed in such situations. An instructional video...yeah, that's the one.

PS...I have bad (read old) shoulders and back so I'm not likely to stop using sustained anchor (skagit) techniques--they allowed me to get back into fishing after about a 20 year hiatus. But that said, from a purely objective POV, I'm interested--I like to be amazed.
 

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Very interesting discussion. I'm just getting comfortable with a mid/long belly line and usually don't have to worry about tight spaces as the river i fish is usually wide open.

That said, there's one run where I'm on river right with a high bank and trees overhead (other wise I would be using a cast the OP described but that isn't possible in my scenario).

With a 16' rod and 10/11 GPS line with 15' type 6 sinktip (75' effective head with 5' tippett) I was finding the most effective cast was a multiple perry poke (but much exaggerated) on a very low angle with my left hand up. I couldn't use a single spey since the overhanging trees wouldn't let my lift go high enough to get the sinktip out of the water from the dangle position. Since I was lifting very low below the trees my line was not in a place for a forward stroke. Fooling around with forward and backstrokes I found that I was effectively doing a perry poke until I was creating a powerful dloop which I then was able to forward cast and quite powerfully cast out the entire 80' head and a little more. In short, I was doing a full-on skagit cast with the big stick and long line.
 

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Hopeless Romantic...
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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Good luck with this one. I gave up trying quite some time ago.

My zero room cast is the bent D single. Basically a continuous motion cast where the D is cast parallel to the current with a lot of energy and the anchor is smacked into the water well out into the river, followed by a continuous motion, roundhouse forward stroke. It totally violates the 180 rule, but if there's enough tension/energy in the D, it works.

It works with floaters, sinktips, and sinkers, big flies or small (hint: continuous motion).
Yes, I know Peter, just figured I'd throw it out there...
Some are going to take it out of context, and say it's short minded and only applied to my situation, and that is fine, they can continue to run with dis-content...
I hope this helps the one guy who decides to try a different approach and has the where with all to go against the grain and "common knowledge" in casting, sometime on the river...

I'd love to do a video, maybe will someday. No one showed me this, so any of you reading can do it, it's not magic, but it takes a lot of practice, and now you have a basis on how to approach it, maybe someone has talked about it here before, I don't know. It took me a long time to be able to consistently throw a single, and this is even more timing critical than that-

It's obviously not for heavy sink tips and bug eyes, I'm assuming all would get that, just as I'd think not EVERYONE would not be standing on a coastal stream with huge dumbell eyes and 20' of t-14, trying to huck a pile of mass and weight no more than 50' for all of their winter fishing, not everyone paints themselves into the same box ;) If that's your game, read on, and take nothing from this-
Much of the time I read about short lines and short rods being better with your back against the wall, it's not with heavy flies and tips they are speaking of, just easier and better in general, and this is not so for all conditions-

Peter's hint is on the money;)

Go try it, you'll see-

Shoot Rick, I didn't even get much of a rise out of you! :mad:
 

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Hopeless Romantic...
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Discussion Starter #19
fishm - i must be mellowing!!!:chuckle:
Rick, tell me how to!!!! Or in the words, of "The Bozz" Take me with you!!!
I'm certain if we ever cast together, I would learn more from you than most, as our methods of obtaining the same thing are polar opposite...
Best on the river Rick, I hope you will still disagree with me some, otherwise, this will be a pretty boring place for myself!!;):hihi:
 

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Fishm - PS I would also like to see a clip of that cast but expect I am past the point of trying to learn left hand up!

wrx - a 16' 10/11 - I am exhausted just thinking about me with that setup all day - but then I am an OLD short whimpy guy - not one of those robust Scotts that are so impressive at the Golden Gate scene or for that matter our all American Travis. Of course there is the all American Whitney - not so robust!!!!
 
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