Can I get some muscle over here? - Questions on Conventional Wisdom Part 2

5843 Views 42 Replies 26 Participants Last post by DWFII, Jan 4, 2015

sinktip

Discussion Starter · Jan 1, 2015

(A follow-up to the It's the Angler not the Rod post)

I see on here all the time, including in the last two days, how someone is advised to go with a lighter weight rod because they are easier to cast and won't wear you out over a day of fishing. More often than not, this is thrown out as an opinion between a 7 and an 8 weight.

This from this morning, that said, I would rather throw smaller flies and tips and throw a 7wt ... as most 8wts are just plain tiring to cast all day.

Really? Like all things it depends on the rod and length complicates things but assuming equal length and properly lined rods, the difference should be minimal. Thinking of these assertions I have been reading of late, I decided to do a bit of research. While I own a lot of rods, including two 7's and four 8's, I only had one near apples to apples comparison - the 1307-3 T&T to the 1308-4 T&T. True one is a 3- piece and one a 4 but close enough. So off to the kitchen scale I go and weigh them. The 1307 was right at 8 oz. The 1308 was a whopping 8.5 oz. So am I to understand that a half ounce will send me to the showers early? Perhaps a gym membership is in order. :hihi:

But wait, I forgot to take into account the weight of the lines. On the 1307 I fished a 6/7 GPS and the 7/8 on the 1308. For Skagit casting, a 450 and a 550 respectively. So both are about a 100 grains different. 100 grains equals 0.229 oz. Guess you better get the personal trainer along with that gym package.

I readily agree that a longer rod, once again all things being equal, takes more energy to cast. Even then though, if your technique is sound, one should not get wore out. My 1308 is easier to cast then my 1608 but I can still cast the long rod from dawn till dark and not need to hit the showers because of fatigue. Don't get me wrong, I love my 7 weights too as well as my 6 and my 10 but I choose which one I fish based on the river I'm fishing, the type of presentation and fly size I will be using and the anticipated size of the fish. My gym membership and weights program should never come into play. If they do, perhaps I need to spend less time at the gym and more learning to cast.

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SLSS

· #2 · Jan 1, 2015 (Edited)

I think momentum is what may make the heavier rod weights an issue. I don't begin to remember enough of my high school physics to calculate that difference.

That said, at 56, it's more important than ever for me to stay fit, as I'm hoping to fish several more decades yet. I unfortunately spend more time exercising than I do fishing, but the fishing and river running is what gives me the motivation to exercise.

Have you seen the little brochure Fly Fishing Into Old Age? They used to carry it at The Deschutes Angler, don't know anymore. The guy that wrote it fished The D on his own til he was 101 yrs old. There's a goal! And I still want to be swinging an 8 when required.

And I almost forgot- pot stir much Tip? Ha!

kymg

· #3 · Jan 2, 2015

Some valid observations in both posts there. And maybe most important is the one about staying as fit as possible to better equip you to keep enjoying what you do for as long as you can.
A very good friend of mine, a fishing guide, was diagnosed with motor neurone disease a couple of years ago and is now wheelchair bound and may not see the end of 2015.
It's slightly off topic but as we get older it takes more effort to keep as active as we once were.
And as for the "fish lighter" discussion... comparing and 8 with a 4 or 5 makes sense but the difference between 8 and 7 is close to splitting hairs. There are so many other factors - weight of heads, size of flies, nature of the water being fished, size of pack carried, scale of hangover suffered ... But just my opinion

Black Zonky

· #4 · Jan 2, 2015

When I get tired or sore while fishing/casting it is entirely because I'm off my game and I'm forcing things. There is no difference in fatigue between casting my 1408 or my 1166 if the tackle is dialed in(proper rod-line-leader-fly combo) and I'm letting the rod work.

klickrolf

· #5 · Jan 2, 2015

It's always the angler...

because he chooses rod, line, where to fish and how to present his fly. All of my recent fishing, last decade, has been for summer steelhead in smallish rivers where, "if I can't fish the far bank at depth I've made a poor rod choice".

Thanks for the threads and posts Mr. Tip

It comes down to how far you choose to go in search of a solid grab.
You can fish the light stuff and hook fish from time to time, or at a sweet spot when the stars are aligned, or you can consider your presentation and where it should be and how to get it there easier. Spose this doesn't apply to real small water like the JD in October but it does apply to lots of rivers in the PNW steelhead world.

Back to Sinktip's rod weight comparison. Two of my favorite rods (same model rods, not T&T). 12' 7wt which weighs 6.8 ounces, the other is a 12.5' (12'6") 9wt which weighs 7.25 ounces (just weighed both on my digital scale). That's a .45 ounce difference from a 7 to a 9 and the nine is 6" longer, both are 4pc. Both rods like delta MT lines, 7/8 & 9/10. The 9wt rod is superior because it is "easier" to get the distance and deliver the weight I believe I need to cover the water efficiently. Low water conditions assumed. When flows are higher I usually go to a longer heavier rod, depends entirely on the water conditions.

As rods get longer there are some "momentum" type issues, the last time I fished a 16' rod it nearly tipped me over.

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fishmhard

· #6 · Jan 2, 2015 (Edited)

Welcome to the land of common confusion...

sinktip said:
Don't get me wrong, I love my 7 weights too as well as my 6 and my 10 but I choose which one I fish based on the river I'm fishing, the type of presentation and fly size I will be using and the anticipated size of the fish. My gym membership and weights program should never come into play. If they do, perhaps I need to spend less time at the gym and more learning to cast.

I hope every newby reads this, there is much wisdom in this one sentence if you wand to learn to cast these rods on the river...

The rod is only as good as the caster and vice versa...

Don't know how it exactly got started ( I actually feel I do, but I wont go there... Something to do with marketing, ease of learning, fiscal numbers etc...

) Ooops( Doc Holiday:chuckle

, I said I wouldn't, so I'll stop

But anyone who thinks the trend of shorter rods and lighter stuff is easier, is , and I say this with all do respect, on CRACK-

Do you have to swing a light bat harder or less hard to get the maximum distance ball flight?
Now, Apply this to a heavy bat?
Now apply it to line weights and rod weights...
Mass moves mass, length adds leverage which translates energy easier...
This aint rocket science, and can't be argued, but I never understand why some don't think it applies here...

I know it aint baseball, but think about it!

Once upon a time a guy bought a rod that he heard some guys talking about...
He told some friends, who told some friends, who told some friends... The guys all went to the water all fired up about there new adventure...
They lined up there stuff, and started swinging for the far bank... And viola, they SUCKED, got Frustrated and quit...When told it would take hrs and hrs, days and days, Maybe even years to learn, they said, bull, I'm selling this crap...
This trend continues until some one found out an EASIER way for the masses to become efficient and fairly effective with little practice... It could happen NOW for all , and the newbs in the sport wanted it NOW!!
So, the guys told there friends's friends friends about the new cool rods that were shorter, with shorter lines and EASIER TO LEARN , and you could learn it NOW, with little practice, and be up and fishing in no time, and it was called BETTER! In some cases it was, but it was with some limitations also, just as was the long stuff that sucked to learn that everyone quit on... And in some cases it simply WAS NOT BETTER , but everyone was so excited , they overlooked it...

Now, I see lately some are seeing the light... And understanding that nothing is perfect, and both have there place, but for sure, this hot blond isn't as good looking now that we're sober, and my old girl, maybe a little hotter than I thought...

Now this trend, starts to go as many do, to the extreme...
Light, fast, compact, while stretching the envelope to the extreme...And here it begins to lose some of it's enthusiasm, as it was not designed to this extreme, nor was it the "elixir" all made it to be, it couldn't be, nothing is perfect...

The answer is always somewhere in the middle...

Say what you will , think what you want, if you want the best rod for steeheading, you better have 4 , a switch rod, 12.5' , 14' and 16 footer...

Now go tell your wife you read this on SP pages, and need to get another rod, Fishmhard said you could!!!

:chuckle:

If any of this offends anyone, by all means
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LFVQpDKHk4

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klickrolf

· #7 · Jan 2, 2015

fishmhard said:
I hope every newby reads this, there is much wisdom in this one sentence if you wand to learn to cast these rods on the river...

The rod is only as good as the caster and vice versa...

Don't know how it exactly got started ( I actually feel I do, but I wont go there... Something to do with marketing, ease of learning, fiscal numbers etc... ) Ooops( Doc Holiday:chuckle, I said I wouldn't, so I'll stop
But anyone who thinks the trend of shorter rods and lighter stuff is easier, is , and I say this with all do respect, on CRACK-

Do you have to swing a light bat harder or less hard to get the maximum distance ball flight?
Now, Apply this to a heavy bat?
Now apply it to line weights and rod weights...
Mass moves mass, length adds leverage which translates energy easier...
This aint rocket science, and can't be argued, but I never understand why some don't think it applies here... I know it aint baseball, but think about it!

Once upon a time a guy bought a rod that he heard some guys talking about...
He told some friends, who told some friends, who told some friends... The guys all went to the water all fired up about there new adventure...
They lined up there stuff, and started swinging for the far bank... And viola, they SUCKED, got Frustrated and quit...When told it would take hrs and hrs, days and days, Maybe even years to learn, they said, bull, I'm selling this crap...
This trend continues until some one found out an EASIER way for the masses to become efficient and fairly effective with little practice... It could happen NOW for all , and the newbs in the sport wanted it NOW!!
So, the guys told there friends's friends friends about the new cool rods that were shorter, with shorter lines and EASIER TO LEARN , and you could learn it NOW, with little practice, and be up and fishing in no time, and it was called BETTER! In some cases it was, but it was with some limitations also, just as was the long stuff that sucked to learn that everyone quit on... And in some cases it simply WAS NOT BETTER , but everyone was so excited , they overlooked it...

Now, I see lately some are seeing the light... And understanding that nothing is perfect, and both have there place, but for sure, this hot blond isn't as good looking now that we're sober, and my old girl, maybe a little hotter than I thought...

Now this trend, starts to go as many do, to the extreme...
Light, fast, compact, while stretching the envelope to the extreme...And here it begins to lose some of it's enthusiasm, as it was not designed to this extreme, nor was it the "elixir" all made it to be, it couldn't be, nothing is perfect...

The answer is always somewhere in the middle...

Say what you will , think what you want, if you want the best rod for steeheading, you better have 4 , a switch rod, 12.5' , 14' and 16 footer...

Now go tell your wife you read this on SP pages, and need to get another rod, Fishmhard said you could!!!:chuckle:

If any of this offends anyone, by all means
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LFVQpDKHk4

What........?

Bignap

· #8 · Jan 2, 2015

At age 38 I have been body building most of my adult life ,and I can honestly say that I'd probibly be alot better caster already if I nvr picked up a weight! Lol Especially when I first started casting 2 Handers. My instructors. friends. guides, that helped me get to where I am today with my casting have repeatedly reminded me to " take it easy, slow down , stop muscling it, lay off the gas, slow down more, stop muscling it calm down. I thought because I was a strong guy I'd shine faster with a 2 handed rod and such wasn't the case. Eventually I started to listen and I remember first being able to fire it out with 1/3 of the effort I was using. Amazed me! It's been almost 4 years now and I've put in quite a bit of 12 hr days stepping Dwn rivers and I've yet to feel exhausted or beat up once from fishing any of my 6/7/8 wt spey rods that are from 12'6- 14'

Great post ST

inland

· #9 · Jan 2, 2015

Sage ONE 9140-4 actual scale weight 8.7. Barely more than that T&T 1308. Yet one line weight more powerful, pretty sure this one is headed to my favorite rod of all time. Till the next. Still going to be tough to beat out the old brown 9140-3, yet I think this rod will as it is more of an 8/9 and not quite the same 9/10.

These are 'salmon' rods for me and not my first choice for steelhead under most situations. But not all.

One thing that has changed over time is the heavier rods (15' and 16' 10/11wts using LONG BELLY lines) are taking a toll. Especially with sink tips. And some gym time will be in order to keep the long term strain kept in check (injury as a teenager playing sports be catching up to me). Along with a change to my casting style. This is far more critical.

My pops likes to say: 'There is a technique to everything'. The better you get at the task easier it becomes. Fly casting hits this point front and center.

aviomech

· #10 · Jan 2, 2015 (Edited)

[I]that said, I would rather throw smaller flies and tips and throw a 7wt ... as most 8wts are just plain tiring to cast all day.[/I]
Yep, that was me. I will stand by it. Be cause here in WA (and when I live in OR), I never see anyone just fishing 13'6" 8wt rod. When I see one, it is for "the big trip for fish up north". If you want to buy a rod for 1 trip great. But most of those rods end up here in the classifieds "Used once on a 5-day trip to the Skeena 3 years ago..." Because they come back home throw it in the closet and fish the 6/7wt rod in the local waters. My point was not so much the difference between a 7 and 8, but do you really need an 8wt? Are you going to put the casting time in with it to get proficient? My biggest stick is a Meiser Classic 13' 6/7/8, pretty much a 7wt. It will do all that I ask. But when I get a chance, I would rather fish my Beulah Classic 10'6" 5/6 wt. If I were going up north, I would not buy an 8wt, I would take the Meiser, as it is sufficient enough for the few fish I would catch there. And it still would be used here at home. But truth be told, unless I'm throw big sinks and flies, the Winston 6126 6wt is my goto rod this winter.

But I get it, some guys just need to prove they are more manly-
(In caveman voice) "Me strong man, need big stick, for little trout":saevilw::hihi:

I have fished 5wt - 10/11wt, 8'-15' rods, single-hand and double-hand, the lighter wt rods are always nicer to cast, and funner to fish. Like the big rods? Fish them. I'm just givin' my 0.02.

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sevilla315

· #11 · Jan 2, 2015

When I got back into spey after a long break, I started accumulating a few modern graphites, mainly Meisers.
I later discovered and fell in love with James Reid modern bamboo speys and have slowly collected a few of his creations for different applications from a 11'3 #6 to a 12' 8/9. They weigh from 8oz to 12oz and haven't found them overly taxing over a full days' fishing (even with a piece of Canadian titanium on the end!). The one exception was a recent trip to Iceland where the guide almost drove me into the ground with relentless fishing over 4 days for 2x6 hour sessions per day with nary a breather for a drink or leak!
I say use whatever makes you happy as long as it's up to the particular task, situation and fish. Physical weight of the rod or reel is a small consideration especially if you're using modern tackle.
Cheers,
S

speyghillie

· #12 · Jan 2, 2015

Conventional wisdom

Happy New Year all,
Let's look at it another way and I know this will sound a little sketchy to some, fishing a short rod light rod with a shooting head or any short head line can be more tiring than fishing a longer heavier rod, I know sounds crazzzy, but give me a minute.

Bignap's description applies to longer rods much more than shorter ones,
" take it easy, slow down , stop muscling it, lay off the gas, slow down more.

Longer rod does not have to mean more powerful rod
In Japan there has been a demand for long rods that cast a 6/7wt line, why, because the cherry Salmon are not big fish... but the rivers are wide.

And Inland's pop was right, 'There is a technique to everything', if that was not the case answer this,
How could Alexander Grant, Cruickshank of Aberlour, John Enright all cast huge distances with Greenheart Rods of 18 to 20ft, my Original Grant Vibration in 2lb in weight, and he cast this rod all day with ease even into his 80's.
Every rod and line has its place but having fished in BC more than 40 times the biggest problem i see is guys trying to hit the bank on the other side with short rods and shooting heads, makes me feel tired just watching. :chuckle:
Cheers Gordon.
DTX Pro Staff.

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roballen

· #13 · Jan 2, 2015

a persons enjoyment of casting and fishing is a bad reason to use a particular rod.

here are good reasons

1. the size and weight of the fish you are targeting

2. the size and weight of the fly/ tip combination to be cast

3. the fight of the fish on question.

4. size of the river

if you are going fishing in a location where the size and hardiness of the fish require a 9 wt and you cannot cast a 9 wt all day long well then the only solution is for you not to fish all day. Your personal rod preference is irrelevant. use a tool big enough for the task or do not perform the task.

if you are healthy enough to wade a river all day long then you can cast an 8 wt all day long.

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Outcast

· #14 · Jan 2, 2015

inland said:
Sage ONE 9140-4 actual scale weight 8.7. Barely more than that T&T 1308. Yet one line weight more powerful, pretty sure this one is headed to my favorite rod of all time. Till the next. Still going to be tough to beat out the old brown 9140-3, yet I think this rod will as it is more of an 8/9 and not quite the same 9/10.

These are 'salmon' rods for me and not my first choice for steelhead under most situations. But not all.

One thing that has changed over time is the heavier rods (15' and 16' 10/11wts using LONG BELLY lines) are taking a toll. Especially with sink tips. And some gym time will be in order to keep the long term strain kept in check (injury as a teenager playing sports be catching up to me). Along with a change to my casting style. This is far more critical.

My pops likes to say: 'There is a technique to everything'. The better you get at the task easier it becomes. Fly casting hits this point front and center.

The 9140 ONE is easily one of my favorites as well. I fished it on the Thompson a few days this year. Effortless! So light and powerful.

sisyphusmpn

· #15 · Jan 2, 2015

sevilla315 said:
The one exception was a recent trip to Iceland where the guide almost drove me into the ground with relentless fishing over 4 days for 2x6 hour sessions per day with nary a breather for a drink or leak!
S

Why would you tolerate this if it were truly uncomfortable or unpleasant? I get that fishing in Iceland is expensive and we all like to make the most of our trips, but if things were as described I think a serious heart-to-heart conversation was in order. The guide is supposed to be working for you, not the reverse.

Sorry for the digression but this jumped off the page. Now back to our regularly scheduled program...

moethedog

· #16 · Jan 2, 2015

I don't know if learning on shorter rods is easier...because I learned on 12'6-13 footers.....but my switches are sure easier on my shoulders after a day of casting.

This past summer I fished my 11'3 6 wt and 11 ft 7 wt, exclusively, on the North Umpqua. Never got my 13 footers out. I didn't feel that I gave up and distance that mattered. I covered water just as efficiently and more easily.

This winter I'have fished my 11 ft 7 wt and 11'9 7 wt more than 80% of the time. My beloved 1307 has had to watch. Again, I'm giving up little in terms of water covered or in terms of tips thrown. I generally fish 7 or 8 ft or T-14 or T-11 and these rods have no problem with this.

There IS a place for shorter rods. My 1307 will get some water time, again, this winter, but I'm not at a disadvantage by fishing the shorter ones.

Skilly

· #17 · Jan 2, 2015

For me the most important thing when using any rod form my 10.6 3 wt. Echo single hand to my 15' 8 wt Greased line. Is to use the line that matches that rod and me so that I am not working to cast any of them.

Right now with my balance the way it is due to a vestibular problem. Stopping the cast correctly is my biggest challenge. I can easily cast my 15' rod but stopping the froward momentum of the rod tips me on my nose. They tell me this is incurable but so far I haven't given up because nothing is more pleasurable to me than casting the long rod and line. To me it is really less effort than trying to reach out there with a shorter lighter rod.

Skilly

aviomech

· #18 · Jan 2, 2015

roballen said:
a persons enjoyment of casting and fishing is a bad reason to use a particular rod.

..... Your personal rod preference is irrelevant.

You can't be serious!:whoa::Eyecrazy:

That is terrible advice!:tsk_tsk:

You really need to find a different hobby if you can't get enjoyment out of this one.

Because I fish to relax, and enjoy casting, or just being on the river. Catching a fish is nice but not necessary. And having a comfortable rod, that I prefer to cast, is a BIG REASON for me. Having an adequate rod for the task must also be figured in, but, I will argue that a 7wt is more than adequate for steelhead, here or Canada. That is not just preference, but my experience. :smokin:

Again, WOW, you can't be serious....

sevilla315

· #19 · Jan 2, 2015

Just to reply, the fishing can be very expensive but this my first was very reasonable and comparable to any BC lodge trip in terms of cost vs hours fished, just compressed.
2x6 hour sessions are how it's fished there, and often rods are shared to minimise costs. Many judge a trip on a trip on fish hooked/landed so I guess to some extent drives expectations. For me it was a pace too high and more like hard labour. This year I'm trying another shared with a buddy at hopefully a less frenetic pace.
Cheers
S

sisyphusmpn said:
Why would you tolerate this if it were truly uncomfortable or unpleasant? I get that fishing in Iceland is expensive and we all like to make the most of our trips, but if things were as described I think a serious heart-to-heart conversation was in order. The guide is supposed to be working for you, not the reverse.

Sorry for the digression but this jumped off the page. Now back to our regularly scheduled program...

SLSS

· #20 · Jan 2, 2015

aviomech said:
You can't be serious!:whoa::Eyecrazy:

That is terrible advice!:tsk_tsk:

You really need to find a different hobby if you can't get enjoyment out of this one.

Because I fish to relax, and enjoy casting, or just being on the river. Catching a fish is nice but not necessary. And having a comfortable rod, that I prefer to cast, is a BIG REASON for me. Having an adequate rod for the task must also be figured in, but, I will argue that a 7wt is more than adequate for steelhead, here or Canada. That is not just preference, but my experience. :smokin:

Again, WOW, you can't be serious....

I don't want to speak for Rob, but I'm pretty sure what he is saying is we are after steelhead, that are in tough shape ecologically in many/most places we fish for them. The health of the resource should be put first, as opposed to fishing too light because we might think it is more fun or sporting, an approach that may be endangering any fish you might catch by playing them for too long a time.

Rod choice determined by the size fish one expects to catch, in the system one is fishing, to land them as quickly as possible.

That makes sense to me.

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