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Discussion Starter #1
..are a good way to put even more load into your rod resulting in longer distances without having to use a lot of power in the forward stroke. But there are a few different ways of doing this, that I´d like to discuss.

The most common style is to shift your body weight from your back foot to your front foot. I feel that this really adds distance but one big disadvantage is when you´re wading on a rocky or stony river bed, or if you´re perhaps standing on a rock/a stone - you might lose your balance and plunge into the river.

In Derek Brown´s video "Spey Masterclass" he´s using a different approach where he´s turning his torso counter clock wise in the forward stroke. If used lightly and controlled I find this to be a great way of increasing your distance but if it´s not controlled it may mess things up in that you lose the straight path of your loop, ie dipping the rod tip too much downstream in the forward delivery. But this is a technique that can be performed even when you´re wading tough stretches. Is there a *proper* name for this style? Might not even be labelled as a *body weight transfer*?

So, fellers, what types of body transfers are you using?
 

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Goran and Dana

If one looks carefully in Dana's video section on the underhand technique(Dana and Goran Anderson), I think you will find not only a distict body turn into the D loop formation and a counter body turn into the forward stroke--- but in addition, a forward body rock into the forward cast. These large body(torso) movements add power and decrease the need for smaller body(arm) movement it appears. Very efficient and certainly would aid in decreasing fatigue during a long day on the water. This counters the Derek Brown dictum of "standing tall" and a relatively quiet stance during the cast with the arms doing most of the work. I like the former.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Torso twist - that´s a good name of this technique, Peter :)

For most part of the video Derek B talks of "standing proud" (you gotta love his language!) but he introduces the torso twist when showing how to cast long lengths of line. But as Clyde mentioned, the twist is useful even when casting shorter bellies (Göran A) and not only for mega casts. When you´re fishing 18-20 hrs a day during a week to the Norwegian rivers it pays to save as much energy as possible :D

I also think that these movements help to achieve tight and fine loops. Maybe the reason is that by using this you get a slower initial movement of the forward delivery, which should mean that you get a straighter, tighter and more *live* loop. And since more power emerges from your body it´s easier to get a short stroke with a crips stop.

I´m struggling with the English spey casting lingo, but I hope you´re getting my point :eek:
 

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JD
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torso twist

On a previous post,,, somewhere,,,,,I made mention of using not only your arms, but shoulders and hips, in that order when executing a single spey cast. I've since revised my thinking as follows. After the lift, rotate hips, then shoulders, then arms. That takes care of the first part of the (back) cast. Same sequence for the forward part, hips, shoulders, arms. Although on the forward cast, the hip thing may be more a weight shift than a rotation. And that means you have not only rotated through your hips but shifted your weight to the rear (top hand) leg. Don't ask me to translate this to a reverse single. :Eyecrazy:

I still have to concentrate and think about it. Which means it doesn't come automatically,,,yet. But when I get it right, it seems to result in a much smoother application of (more) power.

Oh yeah, bottom hand foot forward,,,,if that makes any sense.
 

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I use a lot of body twist on the following assumption:

I was a baseball pitcher from age 7 through high school. You cannot make a good pitch with your body squared up to your target. Watch a pro ball player on the mound. To suceesfully jam one down a batters throat you have to use your whole body or you will not be able to generate enough velocity to produce the pitch. Same idea but less exaggerated in a casting stroke. I came up with this on my own, in struggling to get a cast out without so much arm effort. I was trying to make the upper hand follow through the cast with the rod tension on the tip of the index finger on my throwing hand (which helped, good way to feel the rod hold it's load and release it) but realized that I was then using all of this body twist just like in a pitching motion. Aided tremendously in my overall casting.

Then I got Mel Kriegers "Essence 2" and saw the same thing when they hooked Rajeff and Nolan Ryan up to computers to track body motion.
So much for discoveries :eek:
 

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Derek states to swivel from the hips and he keeps the upper body straight - no bend at the waist which can kill the cast
 

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peter-s-c said:
but by reaching as far back as you can. The rod held far back with the torso twist and the weight on the back foot (the pitcher's positon without the leg kick)

You know, I'd try the full leg raise and kick out if I wasn't absolutely certain that I'd fall on my a** and break something important :chuckle:

Ahh, to be young again!
 

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What!

Moose, I always wondered why you had your flies stuck into a baseball mit instead of your vest when I have seen you on the river. This is starting to make sense now. :chuckle:

-Doug
 

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Body Twist or Weight Transfers

To any whom may be interested,
I've found that the smooth twist at the waist, maybe 30 degrees or so, seems to do quite well. As long as one is careful to follow the rod during the circle up and is sure to maintain as straight a rod tip as possible, all seems to go quite well. There are other considerations such as driving the pointed "D" or '"V" back. Sounds easy doesn't it? There is a hell of a lot that can go wrong, so be prepared to devote a lot of practice time.
Stan, a humble but overtrained beginner. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #10
peter-s-c said:
distance is achieved, not by shoving the rod far forward, but by reaching as far back as you can. The rod held far back with the torso twist and the weight on the back foot (the pitcher's positon without the leg kick). Amazing the distance that can be achieved without flogging the rod.
In my mind it almost looks like some ancient Roman dude throwing a spear :hihi:

When you see spey casters who has figured it all out, this combining of little tricks that do all the differenc, it almost looks unreal. For most people long casts equals a big and brutal arm movement. But not for us here at speypages, we know the secrets :lildevl: And Dana is the High Priest :D

Lots of good post, people. As soon as the temperature starts to rise (tonight we had 25 degrees below zero...) and the waters open I´ll really try to get these movement to work without thinking about them.
 

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Doug Duncan said:
Moose, I always wondered why you had your flies stuck into a baseball mit instead of your vest when I have seen you on the river. This is starting to make sense now. :chuckle:

-Doug

Doug, you weren't curious why I had Meiser put the Loiusville Slugger logo on my rods?

And nobody low holes me with the steady stream of tobackky spit coming with every cast :razz:
 

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JD
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baseball & dancing

Moose said:
you have to use your whole body or you will not be able to generate enough velocity
I have often used the baseball anology to emphasize this point. Although I campare a short stop's abreveated wrist snap throw to an out fielder's throw for home plate.

There is indeed a lot going on here. All this body movement, the sequence, the wind up, the touch down, (anchor) the weight shift, the forward stroke, culminating in that final SUAS. And like Simon says, you must anticipate the anchor and already be into the forward stroke at the time of touch down. Otherwise, it's too late. And even though Derek Brown described it as waltz time (lift two three, back two three, cast two three, plop (or something like that)) there is more. Like the difference between a student and the master, not just the steps but style.

BTW: The body bending and the "stand proud laddie" that Derek refers to is, as Peter has discovered, not to try and get a little extra at the end of the stroke by bending at the waist.
 

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This thread forced a little recollection. I have a very hard time trying to incorperate body movement into my casts when I am actually fishing, as it is something I have to think about doing and isn't subconscience, though I know it makes for better casts. There were a few times that I can remember slipping on rocks during my forward cast, nearly falling face first into the drink, and then watching nice pretty tight loops sailing out over the water. Considering that when I spey cast, pretty tight loops are a rarity, this caused me to chuckle. Doesn't seem to work when do it on purpose though... The Body twist works well, but to me it isn't as natural a motion as just rocking back and then forward, but when I am in the river fishing, rocking is the last thing I want to be doing (besides swimming, which it can lead too)
 

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I was thinking about this on the river last night, and I came to the conclusion that it's not unlike loading up for a golf swing. The weight goes to the L/foot (R/hand upper) on the setup for the cast. Just prior to loading up the D/loop it starts switching to the R/foot and the body starts a turn to the right. Just before the D/loop has reached it's full potential everthing changes direction, and the weight starts moving to the L/foot before the actual cast is made.
 

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BeBop,

The golf swing analogy is one that I always felt was pretty darn good. Too bad I am a hack golfer :razz: The timing and need to ease into the motions also seems similar between a golf swing and speycasts. Too bad I can't draw more on bowling! A five step approach to the forward cast could get some things moving.....
 

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peter-s-c said:
Oh no, never a golf analogy -- if we link casting to golf, I swear I'll never be able to hit another straight cast for as long as I live. :(

Yeah Pete, you should see my casting slice. ITS UGLY! The cast looks good, unrolling out along the target path, and then suddenly, it takes a ripping turn to the right. Can't seem to trouble shoot that one :rolleyes:
 

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The golf mentality...

That would explain the silly hats and breeches showing up on the rivers lately :hihi: What's next, a caddy?? Oh wait, I think we already went there, huh Kush?
 

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Dr Swing - it is called a curve cast and trout fishermen spend years trying to master this cast!!!
 

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I was out doing some practicing yesterday and it got me to thinking about this thread. I spent a couple of days a number of years ago with Derek Brown and got "de-maxwelled" as he called getting rid of the body rock. However, when we got to distance casting he did allow for some more atheletic weight transfer that resulted in torso movement.

As well, Derek uses his left foot forward, more like the natural throwing motion. This allows a greater drift back and consequently more opportunity to move the rod tip for long casts. This fits perfectly into Moose's pitching analogy. I too was a pitcher and I find power casting very much like throwing a ball.

The "torso twist" motion is very much a 2-part thing and the hands/rod make it 3. If you were a hitter in baseball the swinging of a bat is the same. As in throwing, you start with your hips/torso facing 90 degrees away from your target. As you start to swing, the first movement is to open your hips - you will still he holding your torso more or less 90 degrees to the target, then you quickly follow by opening your shoulders/torso as you start to swing. The last thing that moves on the swing is your hands. As your hips and then torso open up, you are trying to keep your hands and bat (in our case rod) back, then follow through with the accumulated power of the first two parts. Such it is casting a double-handed rod.

What I find interesting is that in most of my casting I seem to gravitate to having my right foot forward instead of the left. This puzzled me because when I am really trying to boom it out there to max distances I revert to the left foot forward. This is what I was thinking about yesterday while practicing. When I was working on form my right foot was forward, yet as soon as I started working on distance technique I found the left foot forward.

After thinking about it for a bit I concluded that in most casting/fishing situations maximum distance is not the goal. The right foot forward position in many ways seems to encourage the hip/torso/hands sequence and with little thought - just what you need when you are trying to stay upright on a slippery bottom. The downside for distance casting is that the right foot forward does not allow for as much drift back - you just can't reach as far - that is when I fall back into my natural throwing motion.

Obviously this is a personal preference and the greatest distance caster in the world Scott MacKenzie casts with his right foot forward, as does Ian Gordon, but then Steve Choate keeps his left foot forward.... Once again, I guess it is all good.
 

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JD
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unnatural movements

I am left handed. When I started to learn bluegrass banjo years ago, I asked whether I should try to learn left handed or right handed. my inttructor said "hell you don't know how to use either hand yet, so you may as well learn to do it right (handed)". Point is, none of this stuff comes natural. It is only after repeated practice that it becomes second nature. One of the things I learned when studying banjo was that if you think it is too difficult and you cannot do it, then you absolutly can not. Because you have already convinced yourself that you will fail.

Nothing wrong with trying to find a better way. Alexander Grant did it a couple huindred years ago. THe Skagit guys are doing it today.
 
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