[domantas]

Decided to switch from using scandinavian heads to more traditional lines. Matching such line in terms of grains to particular rod is still a mystery for me. When compared to skagit do I want same, less, or more grains to balance the rod with short to mid belly line? Lets take a rod that casts 440 grain skagit. How many grains a short belly should I aim for?

 

[phomo]

cfbflyrods.com/grainwindow/
http://www.rioproducts.com/RIO-Spey-Line-Recs.pdf
http://www.meiserflyrods.com/what-is-grain-window.php
http://www.echoflyfishing.com/pdf/speylinechart.pdf

The concept is well illustrated in the resources of these sponsors

The longer the line, the higher the grain weight

 

[SpeySpaz]

rod length, power and grains considerations increase the complexity of selecting a belly once you get out of the scandi range, but it's not that much of a problem. You'll find you become a better all around caster after getting used to the longer lines.

example: I have a rod that likes a 400 Skagit, 430 gr scandi, and casts a 5/6 Nextcast FF45, which for a 12'6" rod falls into the short spey category. It loads the rod deeply, slows down the casting cycle, and demands better casting form but it flies like crazy.

But a rule of thumb that says "add 60 gr" disregards a lot of other factors. Probably better to ask about this rod by rod. What rod are you considering getting a belly for?

 

[troutless]

You're making it too hard

Decided to switch from using scandinavian heads to more traditional lines. Matching such line in terms of grains to particular rod is still a mystery for me. When compared to skagit do I want same, less, or more grains to balance the rod with short to mid belly line? Lets take a rod that casts 440 grain skagit. How many grains a short belly should I aim for?

Most longer lines (e.g., NextCast, Beulah Aero, Ballistic Vector, Delta, ...) are labeled with two rod weights. You have a 7-wt rod, get either a 6/7 or 7/8 line. In most cases both will work, depends whether you want a lighter or heavier load. NextCast tends to run heavy, when in doubt I match the high number, that is, 7/8 on an 8-wt rod. Carrons are their own creatures, it's almost line by line. One reason for this is in longer lines the distribution of weight matters at least as much as the total weight. For a skagit belly at 23', given it is also a necessary design consideration the business end be thick enough to turn over heavy tips, there is little room for design variation. Most such lines will cast similarly at a given grain weight. In a 60' head the weight distribution matters an awful lot resulting in lines whose performance is much more design dependent. Carron will not even tell you the grain weights.

That said, for a head in the 45-55' range, like an Aero or NextCast 55, you might notice the above rule usually lands you close in grain weight to a typical skagit belly for a given weight class. If you like a 510gr skagit on a given rod, get the Aero 7/8 or the NextCast 6/7.

As already mentioned above, the Meiser and Rio sites are good resources. Even if you don't intend to buy a Rio line or Meiser rod you can learn a lot looking at the data for different rods.

 

[SkagitMiester]

Decided to switch from using scandinavian heads to more traditional lines. Matching such line in terms of grains to particular rod is still a mystery for me. When compared to skagit do I want same, less, or more grains to balance the rod with short to mid belly line? Lets take a rod that casts 440 grain skagit. How many grains a short belly should I aim for?

I'm more interested in why you are going to longer lines. Why would you want to put yourself through that?:hihi:

 

[Speyducer]

Why would you want to put yourself through that?:hihi:

I'm sure 'pinners' would be asking the same question of one of their brethren if he/she expressed an interest in trying fly fishing.....


Mike

 

[domantas]

Multiple rods:

Scott
1196 ARC 440gr skagit
1287 ARC 520gr skagit
1367 t3h 520gr skagit
1368 r3h 560gr skagit

Reason of me ditching scandi is because I dont like casting them on daily basis. Having longer belly gives more precise control of fly swing speed, and controlled depth based on how you mend and slack you proviide for the fly to sink. I do much better casting delta than any scandi I tried. I like wide open stance casting. Ive learned that even when skagit casting my stroke is wide and i tend to use lots of overhang, not a bad thing in my book.

 

[oldschoolskunk]

With longer lines and rods I think grain weight matters less. Just get a line rated same as your rod. If line is recommended for two rod weights go with the heavier line (choice between 7/8 or 8/9 for an 8wt rod go with the 8/9) until you get the hang of things. My 2 pennies.
Gordie

 

[bender]

1287 ARC 520gr skagit
1367 t3h 520gr skagit

Your line of four rods make it easy. Get first a line which is recommended for either one of these two rods and cast it with all four rods. I am sure at least one rod match with You and line.

Esa

 

[SpeySpaz]

I'd tend to agree with that, and add:
pick the longest rod, a 13'6", with whichever has a more progressive action, and line it by the rod weight rating, then work from there.

If you have a local friend who has some bellies you can borrow or try, that would be ideal, but Poppy at the Red Shed can give you recommendations and send trylines to you too.
Seems to me an 8/9 Delta @590gr would work on one of your rods and isn't a very long head, might want to try that for starters but I'm not too familiar with the rods in your stable.
good luck,
Bob

 

[glcaddis]

My experience

I have owned and used all of the rods except the 1368

Scott
1196 ARC 440gr skagit I use and like very much a FF35 360 grain although I think a WA 40 or 45 would work nicely as well
1287 ARC 520gr skagit I would use the WA45 6/7
1367 t3h 520gr skagit I used the WA 45 and FF55 both in 6/7
1368 r3h 560gr skagit I would use the WA 45 or FF55 in 7/8 and also the SF45 13 at 590 grain wt.

 

[shotgunner]

I do much better casting delta than any scandi I tried.

You must be familiar with Deltas then? For me, the 7/8 Delta was pretty automatic on the 1287 ARC.. Deep load but very smooth.

I don't think your going to find a formula that does much more than ballpark the line fit. Individual preference and technique are just to wide of a spread.

 

[beulahnw]

Domantas

Reading your post about more precise control is an interesting topic that was quickly skipped over in the rest of the thread.

I have found a few key differences with the Aero Head vs. Scandi or Skagit that I had completely forgotten about from the old DT, Rio Windcuter, Rio Accelerator days.

Here is what I found after putting a bunch of time on the Aero Heads:
1) In most normal currents where there are no conflicting currents, eddy lines from rock or boulders. The longer lines generally fish better w/ the rod tip closer to the water and either point your rod tip upstream of the fly to slow it down, at the fly if everything is lined up nicely or downstream of the fly if you need to get things moving. The heavier head weight and stick of a longer line grips the water better and needs to be managed differently. This situation with a Scandi or Skagit I would just angle my wrist to lift the rod tip which in turn would pull the mono running line off the water and let the head do its thing. Lifting the rod tip with a longer line negatively impacts the fly imparting un-natural movement to the offering. As well, the weight of the head stuck to the water is also uncomfortable (making the tip feel heavy) after only a short portion of the run is covered while trying to "high stick" running line.

2) Encountering current seams that tend to want to pull the back end of a Scandi or Skagit line out pre-maturely that would end up pulling the fly nose first downstream and fast...I would just rip off a couple of pulls of running line off the reel and make sure the next cast had the back of the head comfortably on the far side of the "bad" seam. Longer heads tend to have more of the head on the casters side of the bad seam...so...ripping off cast' long enough to miss the bad seam means you are passing over potential takes or skipping water. With the longer lines adjusting for a more steeply angled down and across presentation has fixed all of the seams I have found of this nature.

3)Tightening up on fish. This is where towards the downstream bank and not bass master vertical heave-ho hooks sets are paramount. Vertical strikes with longer lines definitely puts energy in lifting line off the water...not firmly planting a hook. Slightly up and towards the downstream bank with longer lines uses the grip from line to water to the anglers advantage setting a hook for sure. I believe Scandi and Skagit lines are much more forgiving with a caught off guard "happy pants" hook set.

There are still a bunch of spots where I think Skagit lines have advantages like steering through mine fields and super tight casting lies...as for Scandi...some of the tricky skid out current seams are just easier to present a fly with. That said, this new class of "Modern Mid Belly" lines sure are fun to cast and work through runs, many runs much more precisely, efficiently and consistently stepping and casting in order to fish runs clean (which catches fish...arguably more often) Modern Mid Belly lines are lastly much better matches for 12'0" -13'6" + or - 6,7, and 8 weights.

I had a Scott ARC 1196...Don't know if I remember it correctly but it seemed like a light 6 that likes a smooth and relaxed casting stroke. If pushed aggressively it would feel spongy or soft tipped if cast like a Guideline LeCie that is fairly stout tip to tail. I have not cast one in a couple of years...don't know if they made in-line changes? If it is the older model I had I would go with an Aero Head 6/7 or similar from other man's. 6/7 is 450 grains at 45'. I think it will load nicely and keep the rod feeling crisp.

BB~