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chrome-magnon man
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When I started the original Speypages and Speyclave sites there was a lot of excitement about ultra long belly Spey lines. Now we are talking shooting heads, whether Skagit or Scandinavian. Is the masterful casting of the long belly double taper a lost art?
 

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Indicators Anonymous
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i think its all cyclical dana.

its also like a pendulum. it went so far to the long line side a few years ago that it had swing all the way to the other extreme. plus given that modern spey techniques and tackle are relatively young and innovations are relatively common, it fuels the cyclical nature of this fad driven sport.

i use to think everyone would settle back into winductters and midspeys but i am begining to think many are settling into both extremes (atleast here in the pnw), utilizing super short lines when short lines are called for and then using super long lines when longer lines make more sense....rather then settling for say a windcutter or midspey which allows you to fish kinda both specturms but not really to the full potentional of say a super short line (or a super long line for that matter).
 

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Don't know, but I can't get past all the stripping you have to do with short bellies. Much prefer standard and long myself. Not that anything I do with them remotely resembles art. Modern art maybe--Duchamp's urinal comes to mind.
 

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Norwegian speyfanatic
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Dana said:
When I started the original Speypages and Speyclave sites there was a lot of excitement about ultra long belly Spey lines. Now we are talking shooting heads, whether Skagit or Scandinavian. Is the masterful casting of the long belly double taper a lost art?
I think it is a big brake for the interests in ultra long belly lines that there are no commercially available lines. If you want to have something longer than an XLT you have to make your own custom line or use a DT, which by my opinion is not so good if you want to pick up a really long line.

How can we ever test todays roads up against the past achievements if the lines are not available to do this?

Hello line producers out there. Could anyone please make a 60 yards triangle taper with hover density? :hihi:
 

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How many casters are there out there who have actually cast a full floating DT salmon line, let alone a sinking line? I've got a few DT lines in a cupboard -but there aren't too many around now surely? (I have also got a white Bruce and Walker sinking line: white allegedly (according to Hugh Falkus) because Esmond Drury and other former military had discovered that during the 2WW when the enemy had painted the hulls of their ships white they were impossible to see.

I've got one special DT line - a Cortland DT Spey 10/11: did anyone ever try this? It was on the UK market back in 1995/1996.

Last year at a mini-clave I put a DT10 floating line on a 15' Daiwa Amorphous Speycaster: very few people had tried one before and very few could handle it. It was easier for most to handle the Midspey.

Does anyone know of a source of 40 yard salmon lines?

Regards
Steven
 

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DT lines

Hi steven,
I was looking at some DT lines yesterday, made by Shakespeare in 10/11/ and 12 . i think there are floaters ,sink tip and full sinkers, around 35 metre long and selling for £39.50. Been out for a while, not tried one of the new ones, but they look good.
Will try one in a week or so, when its not freezzzzin cold.
Gordon. (speyghillie).
 

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Reality has over ridden the dreams of long lines and long rods

Dana said:
When I started the original Speypages and Speyclave sites there was a lot of excitement about ultra long belly Spey lines. Now we are talking shooting heads, whether Skagit or Scandinavian. Is the masterful casting of the long belly double taper a lost art?
Apparently, for many of us, reality has over ridden the dreams/fantasies of long lines and long rods in the waters we fish.

4 years ago this May, I got into Spey Casting with a 7136 due to a shoulder injury. I used indicators with sinking flies and a WC 678 without tip 1 and sometimes tip 1 & 2. I caught a lot of really nice trout. Then, I found out with my poor skills the 7136 was worthless in heavy river flows and trying to cast sinking tips for shad. I was told that no one fished with a small rod, so I bought a Sage 10151 and an Accellerator 9/10 with tips. I was never happy with the rod, and my son got it a year later for surf casting.

Next came a 7141 on advise from a Sage rep. With the MS 7/8 with tips, the 7141 and I did fairly well. About that time the Grand Speys came out, and I tried the ones Simon had loaned the forum. I couldn't get a GS to work well with the 10151. The 7141 and I did fairly well with the old GS 7/8 with tips. Later that year I took one of Simon's great classes and even me, a very poor caster, was able to cast 70 to 80+ ft with the GS, a floating tip with a Rio 15' leader. While I was casting far for me, my fishing success went down to a few on the dangle. I found myself not wanting to put the 7141 and GS down during low water months in the summer, so that eliminated a lot of my local fishing.

That addiction to long lines went on until the next May, and I bought the Sage 6126-3. My first fishing was shad fishing on the American. I used the MS 7/8 with tips and got into the zones from 50' to 60', and I caught a lot of Shad. The year before I was casting over the zones with the 7141 and the GS 7/8. That year I got back to fishing instead of casting.

In 2005, Rio came out with the Skagit lines. I bought 3 of them, and the 450 worked great for the 6126-3. I noticed the new Rio recommendations now recommend the 450 with the 6126-3.

:( I reinjured my right bicep, bicep/head and shoulder in early May of 2005 and missed the shad season and went into intensive Physical Therapy. When I got where I could handle a one pound weight, I wanted to start casting the Spey Rods again. My physical therapist looked at, picked up, weighed the rods with the reels on and waved them. He told me not to try any rod that I owned at that time. I bought a Sage 5120 from Gary Anderson. With the Loop 3W, I got permission from my PT to try it only with Skagit lines using a Perry Poke and a slow double Spey. The Skagit 450 worked better than a selection WC's without tips 1 and 2. I was back to fishing. A month later, I was able to use the WC 678 and MS 6/7 & 7/8 with the 5120.

Then, I started using the 6126 again, and we got alone great. Surprisingingly, the Sage 9129-4 and the Skagit 650 worked well if I limited casting to about an hour with a 10-15 minute rest. My old Brownie 7136 and the Skagit 450 worked well. My Sage 7141 and Meiser 13'6" 8/9 and my shoulder did't do well, and we still don't. The PT feels that the length, weight and action of the rods were not good for my recovering bicep and shoulder. My PT's and my conclusion was that Rods :eek: with a fast action and longer than 13 to 14' were not what I should be using.

During that time I started casting my Meiser Switch Rods with sinking lines and Outbounds from my boat and no problems even with 450 grain heads and 24' of T14 with Meise's 9/10 Switch rod. Before the floods hit, we found out that the Skagit 450 worked great with the Meiser 7/8 Switch rod. I will be trying to Skagit some Outbounds with floating heads with my 5/6 and 9/10 Switch rods. Use of Skagits with the Meiser Switch rods open doors to small to moderate streams and being able to Skagit from my boat.

In Summary: Many of us due to the rivers we fish and physical limitations are finding out that the smaller rods, Skagits, Mid Speys and even the old Wind Cutter lines work well in our waters and don't have the potential to injure or re injure our shoulders. :hihi: It appears that many Rod Makers and line makers are discovering this reality along with us. Just look at all of the shorter rods that are on the market and the shorter belly lines on and getting ready to come on the market.
 

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JD
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Extremes

I love to fish my long belly lines. But when sink tips and large flies are required, I find it much easier to use a Skagit type line.

Aggravator flies, those big uglies that are a ***** to cast, soak up a lot of water, often lacking in aero-dynamic qualaties, are just much more managable with short, fat lines.

Remember when we first started fly fishing? We were taught to choose the fly, then chose a line capable of delivering that fly, then chose a rod capable of casting that line. Two & three weights for casting size 20 dry flies. Eight and nine wieghts for bass bugs and clousers. Delicate presentations and power deliveries.

Choices. Life is about choices.
 

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Pullin' Thread
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Dana,

I think that there are several factors involved. There are those like Grandpa Spey who have injuries that make it very difficult if even possible for them to use the long-belly lines. There are those who bought one after only spey casting a short time and they didn't have the technique or casting skill needed to pick up and cast 80' or more of line belly. And many folks bought long-belly lines in the same line size as the short-belly lines they had been using; thus, severely overloading their rods and giving up on the long-bellies.

I also suspect the current fad of shorter, lighter 2-handers of 12'-13'6" has had an impact as well since rods less than 14' require more effort to cast the long-belly than those of 15'-18'.

Then there are those who think that the long-belly lines are only suitable for floating line work and not any good when using a sink tip.

All of these things IMO have had an impact on the talk about and use of long-belly lines. As for me, I will continue to use GS, XLT, or Carron 85' or 95' belly lines both summer and winter with floating and sinking tips. They let me fish 85% of the time with no stripping whatsoever, I just pick up the line into a D Loop and go, and when I want to cast 100'+, I don't have to shoot 50' or more of running line. I personally am glad the line manufacturers has these lines available so I don't have to built my own anymore.
 

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Dana why don't you shed some light on your experiences over the last couple of years (maybe answer your own question) for us.
Thanks
 

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As Sparkey said earlier it is all goes in cycles. Long belly's were all the fad and the "in thing" a couple years ago. Now the in thing is shorthead systems. As Tyler said that there is no magic bullet but people like the latest and greatest and what is the in thing which is why the long belly talk is gone.

I would say that most fisherman actually settle on what they use and just use it. A lot of the times I think this board will always talk about the latest thing which is great and I love it but that also mean we probably all get a distorted view of what is out there. Just my opinion.

I like cool new toys too so don't get me wrong on my post I just think it is reality.

JJ
 

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It is a conspiracy perpetrated by the various tackle manufacturers.Their plan? Simple.Conscript high profile caster/anglers as the product design figureheads,have them demonstrate the "Latest and Greatest" at the various outings and claves,thereby fueling a veritable firestorm of discussion via diverse media resources, creating mass hysteria ultimately resulting in a general stampede of confounded anglers assaulting the local tackle emporium for the current innovation.

Lets take a brief look at recent developments regarding this phenomena.

The Ultra Long Belly Lines, though initially intriguing, soon lost favour because they were:(1) Virtually impossible for the "Common Man" to cast.(2) Had limited capabilities based on a broad spectrum of realistic fishing situations.(3)Required reels of Herculean proportions and expense.

Because of the diminished interest and returns relative to the U.L.B. lines we now encounter a new Damoclean sword. Enter into the arena an old idea (shooting heads) with a brand new name (skagit). As with the U.L.B. lines several fishing guides, enticed and lured by the potential of fame and fortune, have given us yet another new/old recipe that is simply another "Must Have". History dictates that this too will go the way of the buffalo because:(1)The dynamics require all of that stripping of line.(2) Are intendedfor use in freezing a*s water, throwing racoon pelt sized flies with your back against a log jam.(is that appealing?)(3)Are described as "effortless" to cast, yet no one other than jedi masters, Gandalf, or the Grand Wazoo seem to know how.

Personally I wait with baited breath and rod to see,no disrespect intended, just what will they foist upon us next?
R.W.
 

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Dana said:
When I started the original Speypages and Speyclave sites there was a lot of excitement about ultra long belly Spey lines. Now we are talking shooting heads, whether Skagit or Scandinavian. Is the masterful casting of the long belly double taper a lost art?

No
No is too short a word for the software.
 

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#&%*@^# Caster
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In north america I would say it is on its way out. The short line systems have been building steam and the hype has lasted longer than the ULB hype seemed to. But then when I think about it and the windcutter has always been the line since it came out and did the ULB ever really catch fire in North America except with a few hardcore folks? Sure it was talked about a lot but I rarely saw them in use on the waters I fished. The windcutter still rules with skagit shooting heads moving up at least for winter fishing. Even the grandspeys and xlts have gotten shorter.

Fly choice also seems to have played into it like JD says. Even in the relative short time I have been fishing the flys have gotten huge. No matter who you are throwing lead eye 6 inch long intruders on any long belly can be a lot of work.

It definitely is not dead in the British Isles but they just may be the last stronghold of long liners.

I for one will keep on with my long bellies and wait for the fad to come back around or I may have to move to Scotland :)

-sean
 

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reel world said:
#1: It is a conspiracy perpetrated by the various tackle manufacturers.Their plan? Simple.Conscript high profile caster/anglers as the product design figureheads,have them demonstrate the "Latest and Greatest" at the various outings and claves,thereby fueling a veritable firestorm of discussion via diverse media resources, creating mass hysteria ultimately resulting in a general stampede of confounded anglers assaulting the local tackle emporium for the current innovation.

#2: Lets take a brief look at recent developments regarding this phenomena.

The Ultra Long Belly Lines, though initially intriguing, soon lost favour because they were:(1) Virtually impossible for the "Common Man" to cast.(2) Had limited capabilities based on a broad spectrum of realistic fishing situations.(3)Required reels of Herculean proportions and expense.

#3: Because of the diminished interest and returns relative to the U.L.B. lines we now encounter a new Damoclean sword. Enter into the arena an old idea (shooting heads) with a brand new name (skagit). As with the U.L.B. lines several fishing guides, enticed and lured by the potential of fame and fortune, have given us yet another new/old recipe that is simply another "Must Have". History dictates that this too will go the way of the buffalo because:(1)The dynamics require all of that stripping of line.(2) Are intendedfor use in freezing a*s water, throwing racoon pelt sized flies with your back against a log jam.(is that appealing?)(3)Are described as "effortless" to cast, yet no one other than jedi masters, Gandalf, or the Grand Wazoo seem to know how.

#4: Personally I wait with baited breath and rod to see,no disrespect intended, just what will they foist upon us next?
R.W.
#1 Reply: You are right on re the ULB's. The Speyorama two years ago featured really long/big rods, really long lines and they were used by the big names to blast a fly into orbit. Last year there was basically a total lack of showing how to use the Skagit lines. The big names were still yielding the long/big rods and ULB's on the market and not here yet. Simon bought one each of the new Skagits to try. The Skagit lines weren't used that much. Sage may have had a couple to try with their TCR's. Ed Ward didn't show up. With the exception of a few of our people willing to share how to use the Skagits, the Skagits were like an unwanted ugly bastard son showing up at a family reunion. Ed Ward and others from this forum did show us how to Skagit cast for a few hours at the Sandy Clave. Much if the input on use of the Skagits has come from the non Jedi's like Bob Pauli and his friends and non Jedi people on this board.

Also, until this week, there have been no new DVD's or video's available to show us how to cast the Skagit's. Jeff Putnam has just released a video where over 50% of the new video is on casting skagits. I have one ordered and on its way. If the video is halfway good, Jeff will have a big seller.

#2 Reply: I'm in total agreement. :saevilw: The reel problem is a real issue re cost and need.

#3 Reply: Use of the Skagit lines with a floating tip and a long leader in the spring, summer and fall for all types of fish is easy to use, effective and fun to use in normal waters and areas where a long rod and classical casts would make the long rod a short rod. Classical shooting heads are a no go in many of our streams and rivers due to brush and trees growing on the edges of the rivers. Rio has come out with a Floating Skagit line, and some of us are trying the Outbound Floating lines with our smaller rods. I did this yesterday with an Outbound floating WF-10F and my Sage 5120. About one hour of use showed a huge potential for this OB line and my Sage 5120 for spring, summer and fall fishing in small rivers and lakes.:D

#4 Reply: "Personally I wait with baited breath and rod to see, no disrespect intended, just what will they foist upon us next?" One of the nice things about living in America, is we still have choices of what we buy and what we do inspite of Political Correctness. I fear that our friends up north may wake and discover that their Parliament has made either the OLB lines or the Skagit Lines the PC way to cast. Or their Parliameny in the ultimate show of PC ness :Eyecrazy: might decree only ULBS in Eastern Canada, only one handed rods and lines in the French controlled middle areas and only Skagit lines for Western Canada. Anyone daring to use a non approved method will have the RCMP arresting them and being charged with a fishing hate crime.:roll:
 

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Swinger of Flies
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The shortest belly in my aresenal is a midspey.....and that is a short as I will ever go. Long Live the XLT!!!!

slightly off subject.....but could I put in a reservation to spend a couple hours with a carron tournament line (for my 7141) at the upcoming Sandy Clave???
 

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Junkyard Spey
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Yo Gramps...

I fear that our friends up north may wake and discover that their Parliament has made either the OLB lines or the Skagit Lines the PC way to cast. Or their Parliameny in the ultimate show of PC ness might decree only ULBS in Eastern Canada, only one handed rods and lines in the French controlled middle areas and only Skagit lines for Western Canada. Anyone daring to use a non approved method will have the RCMP arresting them and being charged with a fishing hate crime.[/QUOTE

I haven't seen one thing so far in this thread that has anything to do with Canada or what their goverment decides to do or not to do.:tsk_tsk:
 

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I remember being at Simon's base in Devon - was it 1994? when he had just received the Windcutter to play with. I can't remember whether TT Spey lines were on the market then, but the first Michael Evans line was (32m and Airflo memory). Perhaps living south of the border was a factor, but I remember that many people, particularly instructors, acclaimed the Windcutter Spey lines: I think it is true to say that it was one of the pieces of kit in the UK that allowed Mr Average - with very restricted opportunity to fish salmon - to get up to casting speed again quickly. I've been told - whether it is true or not I don't know - that the original head length had a relationship to length of line beginners/many others used to use as a starting point: 4 lengths of line or so (15' rod) = 18-20 yards. On the other hand, I have heard folk from "north of the border" decrying them as a contribution to a lessening of casting standards: casters were more able to achieve distance without the same degree of technique.

I would guess that the Windcutter/Midspey are the most popular speylines in the UK - or has that changed?

Encouraged by this thread I went out today and put a DT10 line on my T&T DH1409! Retro.

Regards
Steven
 

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Indicators Anonymous
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btw!

what's a jedi??

an off the topic rant:
i think we have a tendancy to make your every day fishermen whom just tend to be a little more creative, a little more hardcore, a little more talenated then the rest into some sort of God-like figures.

i have witnessed remarks about how so & so is a jedi-master this, legend that, hero etc. etc. when they are just fishermen.

...and maybe this is a little more on the topic than it seems. if we didn't put the creative on these towering pedestals and did not label their latest ideas as "the greatest thing since sliced bread", this sport wouldn't be so cyclical nor so fad driven.

just a thought.
 
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