[Mike S]

The Blanton site has a thread about 2 handed rods for saltwater fishing. I also reviewed a recent article in Saltwater Fly Fishing on the topic. In both cases, ease of casting and being able to get the line out are the main advantages discussed. However, while they talk about types of rods in general, they don’t do a great job of mentioning specific models.

What I want to do:

I want a rod able to punch line out longer distances from or along the beach (large lakes and saltwater). I want to be able to cast into the wind more effectively when necessary. I also want to use less effort to get those casts out.

For the most part, I cast out from or along the beach and then use a single or double hand retrieve to bring the fly in. This process is repeated over and over until some fish bites the fly or I go home.

Currently, I am an American expat living in the Netherlands. I use this technique on large saline coastal Dutch lakes for trout or Danish beaches for sea trout. Wind is a greater issue here then when I lived in Seattle, where I beach fished for coho and searun cutts.

What I think I know:

European 2 handed rods are faster then what are called "spey rods". The spey cast principles its style on the roll cast which uses the water’s surface tension to help load the rod. Spey casts also use a slower blank. The European 2 handed rods are based on the principle of an overhead cast and use a faster blank.

I don't want the rod to be a monster. I feel a 9 wght on a four lb trout is over kill. So I am thinking in the range of a 7 wght?

Based on that, I think I need a two handed overhead rod. If that is right, Meiser's article in Fly Anglers on Line tells me I need a fast or ultra fast blank.


Manufactures of fast and ultra fast blanks for a European two-handed overhead rod in a 7 wght. are:

TALON, SAGE, THOMAS & THOMAS, (are there any European manufacturers?)

However, some postings indicate that models from other manufacturers may apply as well, depending on the model within the line. For example, one Cabelas rod (which may be a Loop) is very fast while another model for a heavier line is rather limber.

What I would like to know:

If I were in the States, I would go to the local spey shop, check out some rods and thus answer some of these questions for myself. I’m not there, so I have to take a gamble by buying a rod and trying it out.

1 - Am I way out in left field with trying to get a two handed rod to do the above job?
2- If not, I would like particular comments on rods or blanks that would meet the needs mentioned above. (particularly inexpensive ones)
3 – I would like any feedback from others that are using a two handed rods in similar circumstances?

Cost wise, I am guessing around $400 but would like to do this for less. While I would prefer a complete rod, I am experienced at rod building. Building a rod myself would reduce cost or compensate for shoddy workmanship on an otherwise perfectly acceptable blank.

Mike

http://www.danblanton.com/Messages/557.html

http://flyanglersonline.com/features/spey/

 

[juro]

Hi Mike -

There has been quite a lot of discussion on this topic and the search function might help reveal a lot of it. I'd go with terms "two hander" myself.

In addition to the choices you may already be reviewing, there is a new rod designed for this purpose on the market called the "Atlantis" series. I produced this rod from specification to market availability based on my own quest for this type of rod working with master rod designer Nobuo Nodera (I work with CND as a distributor of rods in North America).

The first Atlantis model is the "surftamer", an 11'1" and rated for 11/12wt (aftma) lines but has been found to carry 400-600 grain lines depending on length of front taper. This shorter length and higher power allows for casts of up to 150' with specialized shooting heads, but 100-120' are the norm for practical fishing.

It weighs 8.6 oz and has enough of a fine taper design that it spey casts nicely with shorter spey lines, yet is definitively an overhand casting rod.

Due to it's shortness and handle design, it is very comfortable for retrieving the fly single or double handedly with the extended butt design under the arm.

I can't say whether the rod will suit your needs but I just wanted to make sure you knew about it since it just became available this month.

the sponsor site link is www.cndspey.com

Also check over on the other half of the site www.flyfishingforum.com

Other sponsors you should check out:

Check with Bob Meiser, a sponsor who builds exquisite fly rods including those suited specifically to this application.

http://meiserflyrods.com/

Thomas and Thomas makes a 12ft 12wt that has been very popular for this purpose:

http://thomasandthomas.com/dblHanded.htm

Sage Manufacturing introduces the European action two-handed rods which are suited to this approach:

http://sageflyfish.com

Loop Tackle SE also produces a number of rods for two-handed applications and is bound to have something that would suit the situation:

www.looptackle.se

All sponsors of our site and premier rod providers!

 

[mattzoid]

Hey Mike,

I'm here in Seattle and I don't think your crazy at all. Looks like you have done all the same research I did online trying to figure out how to two hand the sound. There are damn few guys around here that do. I have only seen one other guy out on the salt with a two handed rod, but he was using a single hand for Cutthroat. I used the search button on the stripper fishing they do on the east coast and that gave me a pretty good idea on how to get started. If you go back and read Juro's posts, I think he has done the most work on this although, northeast coasts needs may be a bit different than Puget Sound as will your needs in the Netherlands.

Where are you over there anyway. The Swedes have been doing this for a long time and are going to be your best resource. In fact, I have several shooting heads on their way from Berras Sportfiske
as we speak. I'd be all over them guys like butter on toast.

I use my Sage 5120 for trout. Floating heads for trout on the Yakima, Dry Falls, etc. Floating heads or intermediate for Cutthroat on the Sound, NY Stilly, etc. It's not a distance rod, but limber enough to handle trout. It's for heads in the 300 to 450 grain range.

I can kick it up a notch with my Loop green line 8124 for Silvers and stuff. For heads in the 400 to 600 grain range. I am currently looking to fill the 600 to 900 grain gap. Beyond that I just don't have a need to go much farther although some will chase Kings with heads up to 1500 grains.

I've cast the Atlantis 1111 and it is really a sweet rod. Perfect for tucking under an arm and stripping with two hands. My problem is that I've really grown accustomed to 12 and 13 foot rods off the beach . I am going to try a few Bob Meiser rods before I decide. He does have this one 13 foot 11/12/13 that is just a frickin' pool cue, but it can handle King Kong throws with a 1500 grain head and not to mention having the ability to beach a whale. But like I said, I want a target of 600 to 900 grains.

Hey, if you ever get back home, we can head out and check the sound, but I just can't imagine seeing 2 two handers on the beach.

Matt

 

[juro]

Mattzoid,

I have a prototype Atlantis that is 11' 3" and every bit of 13-14wt. I should send it out for you to play with. We have not decided on whether it will be a production model but your enthusiasm is contagious!

You know I used to fish the straits, sound and even Westport (if you haven't done that in the fall you gotta try it!) with a flyrod in the salt when I lived there and like you I never saw anyone else... but Leland and Les are too sneaky to find as they've been doing this for ages.

Anyway, I find the longer rods a pain to fish even if they are wonderful to cast after 8 years of experimentation, but I am always open to new ideas.

Do you use a stripping basket?

By the grain weights you named you must be fishing spey lines overhead, am I right?

Do you stop stripping when the head reaches the tip or pull the head into the guides and wiggle it back out? Most of the steelhead were right up against the shore, although the coho were more likely to be a full cast out there.

I hope we can get out there and play around with some rods, I'll be out 2-3 times in 2004.

 

[mattzoid]

Juro,

I think the Atlantis in a 13-14 wt would be too much for me. Bob Meiser's 13 foot "Claymore" was in that range (that was the 11/12/13) but I just don't plan on beaching any Orcas and I don't want to cast 1500 grains, 170 feet. I have enough problems with wind knots in the 130 to 140 foot range. I liked the 1111 as it had the right action when I tried it with Dennis W, but I think I want it around 13 feet. It's easier to do the "pump fake roll cast" to get the sinking line up higher in the water before I make my back cast and then fire forward. I'm only using intermediate now, but when I start using tungsten dredgers around those rocky beaches looking for rock fish and stuff, it will be hard enough pulling line that sinks 10 inches per second, out of the water.

I haven't seen Leland since Kaufmann Spey Days, but as much as he and I are on the water, I'm surprised I haven't run into him again. I do use a stripping basket in the salt and the rivers unless I'm using a spey line. I've just started using 50 # slickshooter for running line and it seems to come up out of the water a lot better than most, but a basket is good to avoid snags on the beach and get distance anyway. I don't overhead cast spey lines unless I'm throwing a fit because my timing is off.

When I'm fishing for something up close to the beach, I stick to a 26 foot head, but there are times I'll get a follow and need to continue to tease it. Instead of coming in past the head, I'll just raise the rod tip. By then they see me and bail out. The best method for Cutthroat or fish in close is just to wade in one direction parallel to the beach. Walking along, I just keep casting first straight out, diagonally and then parallel to the beach. Move a couple feet and start the pattern again until I find something.

I hope to fish with you out on the sound some time. It would be very kewl.

Matt

 

[Leland Miyawaki]

Hi boys,

I haven't been sneakin' around the beaches because I've been sneakin' around the Skagit.

Leland.

 

[mattzoid]

Been up there a couple times since the flows are down now. You won't be able to miss me Leland. I'll have the Skagit in my left hand and the Salar in my right with a reel case clamped down between my knees.

Matt

 

[juro]

Matt -

Thanks for the detailed reply, you and I are in parrallel universes for certain. Sounds like we need two outings to compare notes... one in your stompin' grounds and one in mine! What you're doing would fit like a glove on the striper country shore. Come on out to the Cape!

I appreciate you taking the time to reply with such detail. Let me reciprocate with why I feel 11' is just right. I completely agree that for casting purposes a longer rod would be nicer. I have found that for fishing purposes, a longer rod, even a 12' is too long. Consider the difference between a 9ft rod and a 10ft rod, it's a big difference.

I am wading thigh deep, 60 yards from shore on a coastal flat. I am battling a big gamefish. The ideal rod length is about 6ft long and stubby. I can deal with 9ft, most people seem to be able to per conventional wisdom. The Atlantis difference from a 9ft salter flyrod is mostly handle, and that can be held against the hip, side, leg or under the arm. I find it not much different than a 9ft rod to battle fish, yet even with 11' it's a little bit harder to reach my fish... but not a lot. With 12' it's noticably more difficult, with 14' or more forget about it. I have found 11' of "tight" flexing blank to be quite manageable and the upper limit of that for precarious fish landing situations like rocks, boats, and wading.

Another scenario - in striper country we get fish the size of our legs to follow a fly sometimes running out of leader before they decide "that food should not have had a tip guide around it" and swim off. In other words, stripping the fly close counts. The longer the rod and line the greater the disadvantage I have in this situation.

Here we catch a dozen smaller stripers for every good one, and we are spending a lot of time battling fish once you get into them. I have a deep sense of the difference between landing a fish on a single hander, a double hander and a full length spey type rod because of this constant "practice action". Now don't get me wrong I have enjoyed every schoolie I ever caught but it can become annoying if the removal of smaller fish is not convenient, especially when there are brutes in the mix (spring and fall) where it's like scratch tickets the more you play the more you win. Again I find the 11' length a good compromise.

To flip the head back out for the backcast, I've found 11' to be plenty for 26', 28' and 30' heads. Admittedly for 40'-44' heads a 13' rod would be better, but if and ONLY if the head was left out of the guides. It would be much worse if pulled into the guides, and some species require retrieve closer than the head. I'd have to wiggle the head out between casts instead of a single shooting switch cast. The example is when a spey line is stripped in completely, let's say to move to a new pool. Just to make a cast there is a lot of effort getting the line back out, not to mention the loss of red zone coverage.

My technique for the pre-cast switch cast is as follows:

- End of retrieve partially into head, I stop where I can still flip the head back out with one motion. This varies per head design, some lines are slick and some are sticky.

- coming up to firing position, I allow the line to slide thru the fingers, so that more of the head is out of the guides before I make my switch cast. If there is surface tension I use it to pull line out of the guides, a receding wave is very userful, etc. Thus I am probably starting with 60% of the head, say 18 ft, out of the guides when I get to firing position.

- from 60/60 over the casting shoulder, I make a switch cast and let the line slip until the whole head is out. This is quite simple, if I give it a lot of power it would turn out to be a 50-60 ft spey cast. Subdued, I try to keep it to just the head because the overhand will double that distance.

- As soon as the head hits the water, I start my backcast keeping the imaginary cylinder of the line's travel 180 from target and narrow. As it flies over my shoulder I let line slip in to the backcast, which has so much momentum if I don't stop it the entire line will be on the beach.

- I stop the line's backward shoot and when the rod takes the brunt of that load I come forward down the same cylinder, loading the rod deeply near my hands as I come forward and stop abruptly.

The line does the rest as the backing knot passes the first strip guide I consider that long enough, 120' with a factory tarpon line and 145' with a custom shooting head.

Considering I used to do this type of sequence with a single handed 9ft 9wt all day, it's a breeze with the 11fter.

It could be that the quickness of the Atlantis makes it less comfortable to roll before the cast, but then it would take from it's big game battling ability and grain pushing ability, not something I want to do.

All things considered, it balances a lot of factors, factors that other rods ignored in favor of one feature or another. IMHO, that is the Atlantis' differentiation... it balances a lot of factors that are important in saltwater coastal fishing around the world.

Well if you wouldn't mind I'll put you on the field test team for the next model which will be specifically designed for Puget Sound / Straits coho and cutts. It will be a lot lighter of a rod, and I feel the Atlantis 1111 is the right rod for ocean coho and feeder chinook as it is, but for the resident coho and cutt rod we have a clean slate and would appreciate your feedback. Leland is already the head guinea pig and Sean's on the case as well.

 

[Guest]

Piece of cake. Go to www.looptackle.com and see the email address for Mikael Ramenstater and ask him about the loop blackline series and his adaptive head to suit. They are in Sweden, and you could probably take a trip to see what they have. I have a Blackline 9# and its very nice, but you should look up the site anyway. Cheers Max Tell Mikael that Max sent you.

 

[Uncle Barry]

Good evening Mike.
If I may try and help.
You require a rod to punch the wind, line weight and high line speed are the factors to obtain the best results. Therefore a 10w could be a wise choice for the beach type casting.
And don't be shy about being over gunned as the reaching of the fish must be your prime purpose, then worry about a fair fight.

Don't want a monster rod, the best line rod combination for your application maybe a 15 footer D/Her with a 10/11 or 11/12w shooting head like the RIO Scandinavian Shooting Heads.

Suitable rod,
This rod would be a D/Her designed for Overhead casting not a Spey type designed rod.
The Talon Midgar series of Doubles are designed for use as a Overhead rod, this range was designed by a Norwegian by the name of Dag... his email address is [email protected], if you wish to write to him regarding the rods.
To the best of my knowledge he is your closest Talon dealer also.
Rod Blanks are also available from Talon agents.

Your 'not way out left field' thinking Doubles on the beach!

Here in Australia we have just discovered the magic of real rods and the saltwater and at first the thinking and local comments were all smart, and now o' how things change, people who have seen the magic are now thinking, how much, how can I and more.

We have designed, built and marketed Saltwater Overhead rods around the Talon Midgar blanks with the results being way better than expectation.
With the 15 foot 10/11W the normal casting distance using RIO's Scandinavian Shooting Head in Intermediate is a measured 120feet with 2 flies in tandem. This distance could be improved however the extra distance is not the average fishing distance and therefore is not included.

The long rod versa's the shorter rod, to me its all about physics, the further the tip moves, the easier it is to generate greater line speed, this is only the case where the rod is balanced, unbalanced, its total hard work. Now when I state line speed this in in relation to the amount of human effort require, hence the balanced rod. Another important factor is it is easier to achieve the correct timeing of the backwards drift, forward acceleration and stop with a longer tip movement.
I required a long rod that can be fun fished for 3 or 4 hours or more at a time, the balanced 15 footer achieved this goal.
Short versa Long, this would go on for ever.

The 15 footer seems to cast RIO'SSH at 44feet with ease where as a shorter 'trial' rod of 12 feet didn't. Another advantage in our book for the 15footer. This shorter rod a 30 foot head was cast with greater ease than the 44foot RIO SSH.

Before you select your rod, please consider the balance and match the rod to the load of your reel and backin/running line.

Kind regards.
Barry Ryan.
I am a Talon and RIO agent.

 

[juro]

Uncle -

As founder of the Flyfishing Forum I have to mention that as Talon is not a sponsor, they or any affiliates are not entitled to promotion on this forum without said sponsorship, a moderator may contact you or the post may be removed.

Putting on my sponsor hat (CND spey rods) I have to comment that everything you said was based on casting ability with no mention of fishing (e.g. retrieval of fly, negotiation of currents, waves, etc) or landing of fish (on rocks, while wading, boats, etc).

If that were the only issue, we would have to do nothing more than modify our 16'7" Thompson Specialist pure overhand so that it's no longer a sweet spey casting tool, and call it the "space shuttle". :hehe:

You mentioned 120' casts, the funny thing is, this 11 footer easily casts 120' and well beyond with shooting heads - over 145 ft in fact.

In any case, I have been fishing the coast with two-handers for almost a decade and yes, unknowingly I started with 15ft'ers, 14ft'ers, etc. Granted each fishery is different and every rod will have it's niche, but my interests were in not only balancing the rod accurately in it's design but also its usage.

I have been observing those who have been experimenting with two-handers in the eastern US coastal fishery. They usually start with a full length rod like you mentioned, but soon discover the fishing and fighting (landing) disadvantages and migrate to shorter rods. This is a distinct trend that parallels my experiences directly.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if you (Talon) does same, and I will be watching to see if my guess is right! :devil:

 

[2HandTheSalt]

A fifteen-foot 10/11-weight for sea trout?

They must have some BIG sea trout down in AU?

 

[mattzoid]

15' 10/11 is extreme for Cutthroat. You would rip their jaw off setting the hook. That's why I use my Sage 5120 for them. Seems more humane.

Matt

 

[Guest]

Well as I said previously we don't have Salmo species in big fast rivers, and cpnsequently we do not have a long history of Spey. I think it, Spey, is a dirty word out here. People look at you quite strangely when you unlimber a 15'fly rod. We also have different beach systems which often make fly fishing bloody awful. We don't have many areas like Florida and while we do have bonefish they are mostly in deeper water. We do have Tarpon, but they are very small, no 200lb things. All up Australia is a different place and different rules apply.
This is the biggest Island on the planet and the things go from tropical to southern type conditions and the species vary quite widely, and so does the fishing.
Having said that I can't think of anything that would stop me using a DH rod in most of the fishing spots around here, in fact in some places I'd be better off using a DH rod than anything else.
The casting distance is longer yes, but it's also easier and if you look at practical fly fishing most fish are taken at under 70 feet, that is because thats about as far as guys cast 9 footers in any application of practical SWF.
I usualy use only a roll cast or an overhead cast, I have no knowledge of any other useful chuck for a DH rod. Sometimes I use a Belgian overhead cast But I also like the ability to use large flies easily and get distance with them. I prefer sinking lines because SWF is based on fishing under the surface mostly. I have yet to see someone fishing a dry SWFly.
There are a few methods of getting lines out of water, even when casting from a 20 foot brick. Some are different, like the heaven huck, in which you lift the line from the water vertically over your head and then switch it to a backcast and then just huck it out there. I do that with 9 footers and can see no reason why it wouldn't work with a DH rod.
D loops mean nothing with a heaven huck.
But I agree that 15' is long, and the ideal length, for effeciency might be 13'6" or thereabouts. But I have a 15' rod and it's what I have to use.
So far though I have not read anyone with a DH rod disussing LMD's and with long casts LMD's are critical additives because with shooting heads regardless of length you have to have a running line and with a running line comes a LMD.
For info I use a supermarket basket and when fishing rocks a panel of prawn net and drop the running line on it. I do not use mono running lines, or manufactured running lines nor do I use straight out braided mono.'All up these things are new to me but I could easily fit the Talon with a spin reel and fish it that way, it's very versatile.
Does that help.

 

[mattzoid]

Max,

Sounds a lot different down there, but warmer. Here in the Pacific Northwest (west side of Washington state, not DC) it's always dark, dank and dreary. We've to grown accustomed to webbed feet and fungus or mildew constantly growing on our skin. Maybe someday I'll check out Aussie fishing. What's a LMD?

Matt

 

[Uncle Barry]

Dear Mr Juro and All.
Please forgive me, Mike S suggested a Talon rod or blank, therefore I truely believed I was helping with my experience.

It would also appear some people didn't read or understand what I wrote fully.

I was not aware that products suggested or written about could only come from the 'sponsors'. I thought that this forum was only about helping others internationally and not advertising. I thought that the exchange of knowledge given freely in the quest for better fishing and casting.

I could not suggest another brand because I do not use any other brand in long rods.
I was being totally honest in declaring my interestes, I did not hid the fact.
Mr Jurno, I did not know you were from or represented CND Products. I am not aware of any other persons interests on this site except for Mr Simon G and 2hand thesalt, Mr J. H.

May I suggest to you and the managerment of this site, please ask people to declare their interests at the bottom of each post, like I have done, that way we all can consider the written word against the persons business interests.

The rod size 10/11w was suggested because Mike S wrote the following, "I want to be able to cast into the wind more effectively when necessary. I also want to use less effort to get those casts out. "
These very same conditions we the conditions that we faced here in Australia, and again I thought I was helping.

I thought the size of the line doesn't matter if you cannot reach the fish. Again Mike S statement about the wind and casting ease.

Fishing ability, please, I really not be using the casting tool if it wasn't suitable for fishing. I have used 15 and 16 foot rods in the surf for about 40 or more years and haven't seen too many problems. Here in this country we have some many thousands of surf fishers that use 15 foot rods with a number of different types of reels and set ups. These same people may suggest you and others could or maybe wrong.

2 HandtheSalt, Jay.
Now really what is the problem, your sarcasam is not helpful. As you are fully aware, you can fish with what ever you like, there are no written rules about fish size and line size.

In fact your thinking is wrong, if we use a larger size line we therefore should be able to catch/land the fish faster, therefore creating far less stress on the fish, and as a result of this 'quick' capture the fish is released in a healther condition which enables it to recover quicker. A lighter line results in a longer fight and less oxygen in the fishes blood, longer time to recover and the greater chance of infection which could result in the death of a beautiful creature. This death may not happen on release but may take days to occur.

Again, Mike S asked in question 3
I would like any feedback from others that are using a two handed rods in similar circumstances?

Mr Jurno, could you please forward to me the costs/charges and conditions of advertising on this site please, as our business Talon Australia is expanding into new products , eg reels and we may wish to advertise with you.

Now on a better note, All the best for this wonderful time of Christmas to All and may your dreams come true.

Kind regards.
Barry Ryan.
Please note, Talon Australia (Talon RA) is a seperate company to Talon USA the rod maker.
I am a Talon and RIO Agent.

 

[Guest]

A LMD is a line management device. I just call it a basket. But on beaches and flats you really need one to look after running line, particularly the thing I use. Max

 

[mattzoid]

I never leave home without my LMD.

Matt

 

[Guest]

Me neither, but ain't it a pain in the butt. People look at you and you can see the quizzy look in their eyes."Who the hell is that silly bugger". Max

 

[Greg Pavlov]

May I suggest to you and the managerment of this site, please ask people to declare their interests at the bottom of each post, like I have done, that way we all can consider the written word against the persons business interests.

That is a very good suggestion.