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Test drove a CND speytracker 9'8" 6/7 this weekend and experimented with the 2-hand overhead cast. I immediately felt the benefit of the push-pull of two hands, and had no trouble at picking up a long fixed length of line and firing it back out, but was not very successful at shooting lots of line as with single-handed double hauling. Any tips? Also, what is the best way to manage the line to be shot? I seemed to prefer trapping the free line under my entire lower hand. :confused:
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Many prefer to hold the loops of line in the fingers of the bottom hand and release as the cast requires. My experiences have been that holding loops in the upper hand tends to create more tangles with the reel since the upper hand makes a bigger sweep than the bottom hand.

Make increasingly smaller circles and as few as you can while solving the problem of holding the line you want to shoot. Too many small loops is difficult to hold and shoot and tends to tangle more; too few and the line is held captive by the current. This varies with depth, current and the physical characteristics of your running line. Shooting baskets are common for coastal anglers as you probably know.

As far as replacing the energy of a double haul, you need to change the way the casting stroke is proportioned. Most single-hand hauling casters power through the cast on the forward half of the cast, using the haul to bend the rod deeply. In essence this is a big power snap supplemented by a double-haul. Few double-haulers (including myself) pay much attention to the initial path of acceleration initiating behind them as they start the cast if most of the cast is made in front of the angler.

Conversely, two-handed casting requires that the rod is gradually acquiring a load early, right from the firing position at the end of the backcast behind the angler. Tournament casters talk about the rod coming forward in the same angle as the start of the cast as far forward as possible before the bottom hand is pulled inward and the upper arm elbow extended sharply ("popped open"). This assures a smooth initial path of acceleration before the final power snap.

In addition to the early load in the stroke, the rod stops abruptly at a much higher location so that the obtained energy can be lofted ahead in a sharp loop. The size of the deflection in the rod created by the power-snap is much smaller than the one used by the typical double-hauler with a single-hand rod.

A 9'8" rod isn't going to give you huge returns on the two-handed overhead technique for distance, it wasn't intended to. You might be better off using the single-handed turbo spey casts with that rod; it's quite easy to cast single-handed whether spey or overhead.

Feel free to contact me offline for much more detailed explanation than I can type per the differences between sing'e and doublehanded casting voer head.
 

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Juro

Do you not consider that the primary effect of a haul with a single handed rod using an overhead cast is in increasing line speed? If the haul is made, as it should be, in the second half of the forward cast, the rod should already be almost fully loaded before the haul speed is applied. That a haul really does not have very much direct effect in increasing loading or bending of the rod, which is already well loaded when the haul is made or loaded further by rod hand action, but has most effect on line speed? The haul increasing in speed as it is made until the release. The fastest part of the haul coinciding with rod tip turnover after the stop.
Line momentum previously generated from hauling when false casting will create greater loading on the rod as it tightens behind prior to the forward cast but the haul itself may have little effect on loading.
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Robbie G said:
Juro

Do you not consider that the primary effect of a haul with a single handed rod using an overhead cast is in increasing line speed? If the haul is made, as it should be, in the second half of the forward cast, the rod should already be almost fully loaded before the haul speed is applied.
Hauls definitely increase line speed, if I understand what you're trying to say it's by pulling on the line to make it tighter. Tension in the line is good, any slack in a cast can kill it. However it definitely increases rod load as well, which increases the recoil, which increases the casting power. I think it does both, would you agree? One person to ask would be Bruce Richards of SA.

That a haul really does not have very much direct effect in increasing loading or bending of the rod, which is already well loaded when the haul is made or loaded further by rod hand action, but has most effect on line speed?
I am not sure I understand the wording, but if I am not mistaken I think it does both. The haul is a wonderful move and a blessing to single handed casters IMHO.

The haul increasing in speed as it is made until the release. The fastest part of the haul coinciding with rod tip turnover after the stop.
On the backcast, the haul is a very useful move for lifting line to make another cast. This is a case of a useful early haul, especially when sight fishing on flats, which I do most.

On the forward cast, I agree that the haul should not be made too early unless there is slack in the line where it could save the cast. Tailwind, for example.

In most conditions, the haul can and probably should be applied to emphasize the "power snap" as most people do (see previous post).

Here is my point from the previous post:

Where a single handed caster does not (necessarily) need to load a rod early in the stroke, a two-handed caster must to make a good cast. I was simply citing the availability of the double haul for single handed casters as the reason one might not bother to fully load the rod early in the stroke.

If humans had three arms I am sure the two-handed cast would be much easier to learn, because people would just triple haul :lildevl:

My only significant point was that two-handed casters have no haul, thus must load the rod correctly as you have mentioned in your comments.

Line momentum previously generated from hauling when false casting will create greater loading on the rod as it tightens behind prior to the forward cast but the haul itself may have little effect on loading.
If I understand your quote, that would mean that I could stop hauling after I have hauled into a strong false cast sequence.

My experiences, although everyone is different, is that the haul must be continued in order to deal with the cadence of strong false casts. In other words, the more momentum I have generated with strong haul false casts, the more I need to keep hauling so that things don't collapse.

In any case, I had no intention of discussing the haul's effect on single handing - I was just trying to say there is no double haul in two-hand casting so technique must compensate without it. The returns for this learning curve are huge in terms of efficient casting, distance, ability to handle big lines and flies (and fish).

It's analogous to learning the double haul if you think about it. :wink:
 

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hmmmm

a `nine ft.8. six wt'= speycasting, :confused:, double hauling works!,speycasting works!,you're really straddling the line now with a very short rod in a very light line rating,,what's the point??? ,peter s-c !,,,help me!, :rolleyes: ,a true `troutspey'!????? :)
 

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Juro

Yes I do agree with you that hauling both loads the rod and increases line speed.

I would not ever advocate stopping the haul when the rod was loaded. As you had quoted earlier, the haul increasing in speed as it is made until the release. The fastest part of the haul coinciding with rod tip turnover after the stop.

All I was saying, though not clearly, is that a haul can directly increase line speed dramatically as it is actually being made but may only slightly (directly) increase rod loading as it is being made. It will indirectly and dramatically increase rod loading due to generating line momentum.
I do believe some of the haul on a single handed rod during the final delivery will be made as the rod is actually unloading.

Some double handed casters advocate creating early loading on the back cast by taking advantage of line resistance in the miniscus and use a lesser lift before making the backcast when using a floating line.
 

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From what the rod goes through, the mechanics of single hand and double hand overhead cast are identical. Nothing more than acceleration to a sudden stop. No need to make it more complicated than it really is. "Power snap" as originally coined by Joan Wulff is an ambiguous term for many, especially when one sits down and tries to figure out exactly what is a "power snap" (for most, trying to implement something that feels like a power snap will result in tailing loops, guaranteed). The term acutally refers to the force necessary to suddently STOP the rod at it's maximal moment of acceleration...

[There are many fantastic threads on the haul, line speed, loop shape, rod loading, etc. etc. etc. on the sexyloops site, a site where you can find the best single hand casters in the world (including guys that can throw a 5 weight XXD 130 feet with a 9 footer) posting extremely thoughtful and useful tidbits.]

In my mind, the two-hander, while taking the ability to haul away (unless one is born with a prehensile extra appendage), allows us much more leverage on a long rod with the use of two hands. The timing of the application of power with the lower hand on the butt of the rod is amazingly like that of that same hand during the haul with a single hander - same timing, same feel, just holding the butt rather than line.

All the other principles of good single hand casting apply to overhead casting a two hander... smooth and appropriate application of power to a sudden stop, importance of a single casting plane, tight loops for distance, more line carried = longer stroke length, better casters pull, rather than push.
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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It's good to know that acceleration and stop are all I need to know. Therefore I can use a short, wavy stroke (length and path) and still get a good cast as long as I accelerate and stop it suddenly, and the line will not crash into the rod without tucking the tip under this acceleration path :lildevl:

The "power snap" is just common jargon for what people are calling "flick" on sexyloops. In fact some of the most respected people, like Bruce Richards, cite this element of casting as being critical to the formation of loops.

Aside from what they are saying elsewhere, the theory of casting technique applying to single and double is rock solid; however in practice the vast majority of fly casters out there use a emphasized 'flick' to accent their casting release. Furthermore, the primary cause of limited casting effectiveness for folks I worked with who were making the transformation from power double-haulers to two-handed overhead casters is what I posted earlier, the attempt to increase power with a bigger push/pull arc (e.g.power snap) rather than acceleration over an extended straight-line path with an abrupt decelleration and stop. Damn there's that techno-babble again, no wonder I seek simple terms. :wink:

Seriously, I am sure you could provide great insights into casting two-handers well, it would probably be greatly appreciated by many if you did; myself included!
 

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Juro:

I guess I'll bow out to your expertise, as you clearly have it all figured out.

Good luck!
 

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Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
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Maybe I read your response incorrectly. It seemed to be a pointed editorialization of my attempt to be helpful. I had no other intent than to be helpful by responding to the initial question.

After reading your references to things I mentioned, I felt I had two choices: call a spade a spade or remain silently portayed as a 'shovel'. Perhaps it was a fault in my perception, and I failed to take the high road once again. Right or wrong I regret my reaction.

As far as figuring things out, I haven't even scratched the surface of casting expertise, every stone turned reveals another mystery. As I have said before I am nothing more than a student and admittedly far behind you in this study. I am not interested in creating confrontation, but have difficulty not speaking up for myself. If my zealous nature comes across the wrong way, I will re-read and try to curtail my enthusiasm in future posts.

So in this way, you have actually taught me a good lesson!
 
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