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sushiyummy & C&R
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was tinkering with the Albright knot for a 18" leader to 18" tippet. But my testing resulted in the line breaking at the knot, not the line as I wanted.

I experimented with the following:
1. Perfection loop leader end (20#).
2. Bimini twist tippet end to form loop (8#)
3. Perfection loop both ends with loops weave in and out many times to create multiple hand shakes.

I found the tippet was no longer breaking at the knot. One test broke at the tippet loop, far from the knot.

The only limitation to the above setup is it needs to be prepared with a fat marker to get continuous tension, not making it stream side friendly. The good news is its a weaved perfection loop allowing easy change out of bimini twisted tippet.

Does anyone know of any more time efficient knots that achieves 100%?

I searched this website but couldnot find duplicate questions. Thus, bear with me if this is a repeat.
 
G

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The best leader-to-tippet connection that can be accomplished streamside is called the ligature knot. Lefty and Mark refer to it as the Simple Blood Knot in their book. When tied correctly, and regardless of the name Lefty and Mark use it is a more complicated knot than an ordinary blood knot, it tests very close to 100%. For me it almost guarantees a breakoff either in the tippet itself or at the tippet-to-fly connection.
 

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Knot Knowledge

Check out Art Scheck's book Fly-Fish Better he really addresses the questions of knot strength and alternative knots. He has expanded on Lefty and Mark Sosin's previous work. I think you'll find it interesting and informative.

Speyhopeful
 

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Spider Hitch

Here's a knot I have experimented with a few weekends ago . http://www.sarasota-fla-fishing.com/Spider.html

Excellent breaking strength , broke in the middle of the tippet 3 out of 4 times !! I buggered up the first Turtle knot and proceeded with the test anyway . Probably wouldn't be much fun to tie at low light conditions though . I haven't tried it out in the real world yet , but in the basement it seems fine . It's another option for you anyways . Good Luck !!

Mike
 

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sushiyummy & C&R
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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Thanks for all the responses. I will try your suggestions particularly the Spider Hitch.

In my very scientific bend knee test (stay with one knee or all results are invalid [chuckle], knots outside of knee contact area), I have found the following conditions causing knots to break, and I think the Spider Hitch comes second to the Bimini twist in solving:

1. Pinching down on the load bearing line (LBL). Any cinching down on LBL reduces it's diameter, increasing it's load bearing pressure (lbs/ sq in) under a constant load.

2. LBL taking dramatic sharp turns. Turns inherently weakens the outside bend (elongatation increases distance between molecules), lessening it's load bearing capacity.

The Albright knot was breaking at it's first bend. The fracture point also showed a thinning down in adjacent areas, caused by the sharp bend resisted under high load (pinching). In addition, it was already weakened by having to take the first sharp bend (reduced strength) even under no load bearing load. The combination of the two (high pressure, low strength) appears to cause this less than 100% fracture.

I believe the Bimini Twist and the Spider Hitch knot solves these problems by reducing the loads in these hot spots by using line twist (friction). It's like increasing the amount of twist before the first turnaround bend in a blood knot.

I like the Spider Hitch for the double line use (more friction, halved Load bearing per loop leg, double thickness in pinched area), speed of tie, and Stream side friendliness.

This will be helpful for my 2lb line trout fishing.

I'll do more 8lb flourocarbon testing with 20 lb leader this weekend with the Spider Hitch knot and post more results (reminder: Right knee only).

For pre tied leader/ tippet knots, I will stick with the setup in Original posting (Bimini twist and Multiweaved Perfection loop).

For streamside tying, the Spider hitch seems to be the closest horse to the finishing line, barring any surprises in basement testing.
 

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sushiyummy & C&R
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Another quicker alternative I just thought of is Non Slip Loop knot (see my adjacent posting) or Rapala Knot with a Multi weave handshake to the 20# leader perfection loop.

I am counting on the breakoffs at the hook eye end, relying on the assumption the tighter radius of the hook eye 1) reduces the line strength, 2) Pinches down on the diameter- all these causing it to be the weakest link in the chain.

Even for a 3/0 or larger hook making the hook eye radius the same or larger than the tippet radius found on the leader connection end, the line carrying load is still less in the latter, making the latter stronger (the Multiweave is taking load off the radius). Hopefully, this also means hook eye break offs for bigger hook eyes.

Any thoughts to this?
 

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Sushi ,

It would be interesting to see your results with the Flourocarbon using the non-slip and the Spider Hitch .

My experiments have found the Spider Hitch has a higher breaking strength than the Non-slip loop when using FC . Because of exactly what you have mentioned , by doubling the line , reduces the friction to breaking point by half (direct ratio) .

When FC is subsituted with a co-polymer or monofiliment , my testing shows negilgable gains using the Spider Hitch . It would be interesting to see your results . Good Luck .

Mike
 

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Check out Art Scheck's book Fly-Fish Better he really addresses the questions of knot strength and alternative knots. He has expanded on Lefty and Mark Sosin's previous work. I think you'll find it interesting and informative.

Speyhopeful
I'd agree. I switched to his Orvis Tippet knot and like it.
 

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Junkyard Spey
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7,114 Posts
The best book I've found on knots and their breaking strengths is "Fly Casting Systems" by Bill Nash. He doesn't sell to shops unfortunately. Mucho good info on shooting head systems. A google search will reveal his page and his contact info.
 

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if it ain't broke don't fix it !!!1 maxima chameleon blood knotted to more Maxima chameleon may not be 100% but if it breaks it's cause you did something wrong not because the knot or the line lacks strength...
 

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Junkyard Spey
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if it ain't broke don't fix it !!!1 maxima chameleon blood knotted to more Maxima chameleon may not be 100% but if it breaks it's cause you did something wrong not because the knot or the line lacks strength...

****+1****
 

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sushiyummy & C&R
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Here is an update on more test I did at the dinner table:
1. My 8lb vanquish floroucarbon line breaks repeatedly on the main line, far from the Bimini twist loop and Spider Hitch loop. 100% knots to both.
2. I get the same result using Spider hitch loops on both ends. 100% knots.
3. Repeated for knots preconditioned from prior breaking test (mimicking reusing tippet/leader connection from a breakoff). Same deal- 100% knots for both Bimini and Spider. But main line fracture load feels less than when in virgin state of no breakoffs.

Disclaimer: The loops were wrapped around a fat marker and a Phillips screwdriver handle. The speed was moderate to moderately fast- it got faster when my partner got more annoyed the more I used her as a test clamp guinea pig.

The results may/maynot change if I switch the marker/ screwdriver with hook eye (tighter bend). I had to abandon this phase of the testing due to HIP (Highly irritated partner) syndrome.

PS: Spider hitches takes less than 1 minute to complete, way less time than a well done Bimini twist. I am leaning towards this as my go to knot for both ends of my tippet.
 
G

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Sushiyummy,

Spider hitches are, indeed, easier to tie, although once you've practiced the bimini it can be tied in about one minute. The biggest advantage to the bimini is the shock absorbtion which cannot be duplicated in the tests you're running. Also, the spider hitch takes a little less line to tie. A couple of things to keep in mind: spider hitches rarely test out at 100% in fishing situations, though they are far stronger than many other loop knots; also spider hitches tend to be useless in gel spun unless everything is doubled before you begin. That makes it almost as putsy to tie as a bimini. Be sure to let us know how your results went when actually fishing.

By the way, at least two good books on pelagic flyfishing have been done. Fly Fishing for Billfish by Jack Samson is a good read and makes a good case for the spider hitch. Bluewater Flyfishing by Trey Combs is essentially the bible for offshore guys, and he makes a good case for the bimini. Both claim they'd never use the other knot ever again.
 

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sushiyummy & C&R
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Maxima was kind enough to send me samples of their Chameleon and Ultra Green. While I was on the phone last night, I pulled a Perfection loop against Spider hitch and the former broke at the knot. Using the leftover portion, I tied a Spider hitch on the broken end and pulled, resulting in main line break (what I wanted).

Didnot try ultra green but I don't expect the results to differ.

I used a nail knot tool to tie the spider hitches, except I used the downside up (the channel side facing downwards). A little fumbling at first but got the hang of it.
 

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BULL DOG!!!!
Gaelforce
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2,193 Posts
For a 100% knot try a double surgeon knot with a drop of superglue!
 

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inglorious 2hander
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I truelly dont think a surgeons knot is 100%.. At least that is what I read . However on leader to tippet what works for me is a triple surgeon knot..
 
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I guess this is one that got away and will never get straightened out. What I mean is, does your double surgeon's knot go through two times or four? I always understood that a surgeon's knot was tied by going through twice. Therefore, a double surgeon's would mean going through four times. And, perhaps, that's exactly what you mean. Though this sounds like a smarta$$ comment, I'm serious. Lefty Kreh, in a recent issue of Fly fishing in Saltwaters, and Dec Hogan in his new steelhead book, both refer to a triple surgeon's. But, in truth, a triple surgeon's would mean six times through and I know that's not what they mean. They mean a three times through surgeon's knot, which is, indeed, a superb knot. The confusion that is caused by this is more than most people would comprehend. Bill Nash and I, and I'm sure a few others, have been trying to get this cleared up the past year or so, but it seems like things have gone too far for that. At least let us know for sure that what you meant was just a standard surgeon's knot (two times through.)

danimal---Adding the right super glue can make almost any knot 100%. The best, according to the leader man, Gary Selig, is Duro in the thin (not gel) version.
 
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So maybe that was what Bruce really meant by a double surgeon's. I use the three times through version quite a bit, but haven't messed with the 4 times through. Since even the three times through can be tough to tighten cleanly, I would think the four times through would need to be well lubricated when using heavier tippets.
 

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inglorious 2hander
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1,048 Posts
I myself have tried a quad surgeons (line and tag 4 times thru each) seems to break very easily for me..I think ya would have to have all loops evenly in line with that much BULK in the hole for it to seat properly.. And I am not that patience when I am fishing.... Hey JR! is the duro which I can get at wallyworld down the street for a buck a tube better than zap a gap?
 
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