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Orange Heron - criticism welcome

3K views 11 replies 5 participants last post by  halcyon 
#1 ·
My first go at Spey Flies, Orange Heron, after reading and reading, how to tie them. What is below are my first 3 attempts-experiments and notes.

Orange Heron 1
  • Hook: Partridge Barlett Size 4
  • Thread: Danville Flymaster 6/0 in Red
  • Tinsel 1: Lagartun Flat Metallic (Small, I believe)
  • Tinsel 2: Oval X-Strong Small
  • Floss: Lagartun Floss, Orange (Hot?)
  • Dubbing: Seal, Hot Orange (McFeathers)
  • Hackle: Whiting Spey Saddle BEP Colour
  • Collar: Pintal
  • Wingtip: Whiting American Rooster Cape Orange
  • Head Finish: Veniard Cellire Varnish.
  • Method: Veverka's

.
Comments (besides need better lighting):
  • Hackle and ribbing is fine and possibly too fine. Could use more dubbing, but I think this would fish fine. To increase the fullness of the hackle, I change methods, and went to starting the hackle at the rear (John Shewey methodology).
  • With respect to the wingtips, I had three sources: Whiting American Rooster Cape, McFeather Chinese Cape and Sitched Saddle. The McFeather was fuller, but as I prefer a lean wingtip, I started with the Whiting. I found alignment and placement onto the Partridge easier than expected.
Orange Heron 2
  • Hook: Partridge Barlett Size 4
  • Thread: Danville Flymaster 6/0 in Red
  • Tinsel 1: Lagartun Flat Metallic, Medium
  • Tinsel 2: Oval X-Strong Small - Cross-Rib
  • Floss: Lagartun Floss, Orange (Hot?)
  • Dubbing: Seal, Hot Orange (McFeathers)
  • Hackle: Whiting Spey Saddle BEP Colour
  • Collar: Teal
  • Wingtip: Stitched Saddle
  • Head Finish: Veniard Cellire Varnish.
  • Method: John Shewey's Orange Heron 2

.
Comments:
  1. The "tag?" a little too big?
  2. I prefer the finer hackle tips, but getting a match set of wingtips is painful, so keep to using the Whiting, and keep looking at streamer capes.
  3. Teal or Pintail? You get more Teal in a bag, and therefore a better selection in sizes. So Teal, when it works.
  4. I change the methodology to Shewey's Orange 2, tieing the hackle at the rear and added in a cross-rib, which does result in a fuller (better to my eyes) and more robust fly. This methodology suits the Whiting Spey hackle.
Orange Heron 3
  • Hook: Partridge Barlett Size 6
  • Thread: Danville Flymaster 6/0 in Red
  • Tinsel 1: Lagartun Flat Metallic, Medium
  • Tinsel 2: Oval X-Strong Small
  • Floss: Lagartun Floss, Orange (Hot?)
  • Dubbing: Seal, Hot Orange (McFeathers)
  • Hackle: BEP Medium
  • Collar: Teal
  • Wingtip: Whiting American Rooster Cape Orange
  • Head Finish: Veniard Cellire Varnish.
  • Method: Veverka's - slight modification.

.
Comments:
  • A smaller hook, why, it just fits my style of fly selection. Partridge might make a good collar for smaller hooks.
  • Yes, the BEP (Blue Eared Pheasant) makes a excellent and graceful hackle.
  • My modifications?
    • A full wrap of tinsel at the back, before I proceed forward.
    • The wingtip stems (under the thread) are bent back, pulled under and the secured. (Why? while, I did accomplish a small nice head (Bob might be proud), but the tips pulled after, so after I cleanded the head and did it again, I want to be robut, so as I can fish it).
 
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#2 ·
I think all of them would give you some satisfacions at the river. The one i like the most (overall speaking) is the second one.

More in detail, the tag in #2 is not "that" large, one turn shorter could be Ok, but as long as it still looks like a tag.

The best hackles is without a doubt the BEP usend in the #3, the "spey hackle" fibers are too fine for my taste.

Wings.... my favorite for hackletip wings are chinese necks, they look great and are quite easy to find matching pairs. What i would try is to set them lower, keep a nice tent but almost parallel to the hook shank. That is my way to see Glasso's flies so take it as a personal apreciation and not like written in stone.

The best collar is #2.
 
#3 ·
Thank you ..

I also like a lower hackle tips, but to be honest, I am still trying to develop this skill, which segways to what works with number 2 is the shape of the hackle tips, but I have very few sets (if any) with this look. But, now know what I want to look for in a cape (or saddle).

To a low placement, I am wondering, if adding the collar after wingtips will result in a lower set, as I will not have to deal with the bump of the collar stem.

With a BEP hackle, I am thinking a stronger collar can be justified.

Last night, I started on a Black Heron on Low Water Wilson (straight hook), to see the effect of the hook, but I cut it up. Why? I found the use of the medium tinsel was too much and distracted from the inherent black beauty, so I am about to try this again.
 
#6 ·
Hmm i understand you situation with the wings, it wot me crazy too when i started. What i did find out is that to properly get a low sitting, tent wing the most important thing was to put all the four stems parallel to the hook shank and to themselves, i put each pair with the concave sides facing each other, that way they seem to have a better shape. Also, no matter how much i admire those people who can tie in both wings together, i tie them one at a time, usually the one far away first and then the one close to me.

One thing that really helped me to achieve this skill, besides all the comments fromt he folks in this forum, was Marty's DVD, once you see it you acquire a whole new perspective on how to do it.

I want to see the black heron!!! it is one of my top ten flies :smokin:
 
#7 ·
These are indeed nicely done first attempts.
The floss and dubbing in all three is very good.
The overlaying of the oval tinsel against the flat tinsel is also very good in all three. If you desire the floss to glow in the water and not have the orange color "muddy up" when wet you may wish to use the flat tinsel under the whole body. You may also find that using a very light or white working thread until you get to the point of tying in the wings will provide a more accurate color to the fly body when it is in the water.
The problem you are having with setting the desired position of the wings is due to the fact you are mounting them incorrectly. What you are doing is making featherwing streamer wings mounted as a knife blade on top of the hook shank. What you need to do is mount them on the upper sides and top of the hook shank tented over exactly as a traditional Spey fly bronze mallard wing is mounted. Flytyer has posted numerous times on exactly how to mount Syd Glasso style Spey wings.
You may also wish to see that each of the pairs of wing feathers have the stems positioned with the stem butts directly in line with one another. This will prevent the wing tips from splaying vertically such as in your #1.
The feathers you have chosen for the wings are too long (large) IMO. You want feathers that allow you to tie them in over the webby base portion of the wing. This provides a better bedding of the stems and also creates the equivalent of a shoulder feather to hide all that has been mounted before the wings. The wings being tied in after and in front of the body, tinsels, hackle, and throat.
The wings can be shaped after tying in to provide the humped curve look associated with Spey flies. Ways to do this have been posted by RLM and myself.
The heads are a bit long and #1 and#2 are also a bit large in diameter. #3 would be about perfect but for the excess of varnish floating the head all the way to into the back of the hook eye. Head distance behind the eye is great in #s 1 & 2.
As to style. For me the throat is too long in #1, just right in #2 and short in #3. The hackle choice in #3 produces a heavy look to the fly and much more surface area making the fly more buoyant in current as compared to #s 1 & 2. I prefer the way that the Whiting Spey Hackle provides very mobile, shiny moving fibers in the water over the much more opaque and courser BP. But style is a personal thing and there is no such thing as incorrect style.
 
#8 · (Edited)
All appreciated

The Black Heron head is drying. I made many of attempts to improve on the tenting (but did not), and need to do more research. To this ....
  1. Rob, which DVD are you referring to.
  2. Halcyon, I will search down Flytyer's instructions. (look at others last night, maybe youtube later). I thought web might be bad. Also thinking of reversing thread direction, as the hackle tips are rolling.
On version 2 and 3, there is a layer of tinsel under the floss.

I agree on the head distance and striving for robustness and a small head. (My small head earlier, allowed the hackle tips to come out). I also wonder if I am better off without a gloss head, replace Cellire with Flyrite (what I use for other flies).

Collar size agreed. I also think with #3, the boldness of the BEP drives the need for a stronger collar to.

BEP versus Whiting - My open Q to myself and anybody? How does it behave in the water? (Do the fish care? and do we really know).

Thank you, as you can see, I am being methodical and measured in my approcach to improve, in which good feedback is much appreciated.

Now I need to go outside and snowplow out the driveway!

D
 
#11 ·
[*] Rob, which DVD are you referring to.
"Steelhead Flies: Tying Classics" by Dec Hogan & Marty Howard; I'm pretty sure some of the forum sponsors will have it on stock, it is a double DVD with zero waste :D

The black heron, well, a black heron is a bird from the heron family with black feathers (or that was what i was told when i saw the bird in the zoo). It has a rear body of flat silver tinsel with a round silver tinsel as ribbing, the front body is black fur with silver ribbing and heron hackle (or substitute where it is forbidden) black hackletip wings and guinea collar with a black head all mounted on a bartleet or AJ style hook (if i remember correctly without looking for my notes for checking it) I was tying one (by memory) earlier today but it is still wingless hehe, i will put int he wings tomorrow (i hope).

Your version is very valid (and i think the head is nice, just need a couple more layers of lacquer to look great) but the first thing i would change is the hook, if you are tying a spey fly it should be done on a spey hook. I have tied on salmon hooks when i started, until someoen here int he forum pointed me this very same fact, when i started then to tie speys on spey hook everything started to get nicer. The other think i would try is to make it a little bit sparser. Other than that i don't see any "serious" flaw in your version, you will get the wings right in no time, you show great tying skills so it will not present a big trouble to you :)
 
#10 ·
Black Heron


  • Hook: Partridge 01 Wilson Size 2
  • Thread: Danvile Flymaster 6/0 Black
  • Tag: Largutan Oval X-Small Strong
  • Floss: Uni-Floss Black.
  • Rib: Largutan Oval X-Small Strong
  • Upper Body: Black Seal
  • Hackle: BEP
  • Wing: Salt Water Bass Cape tied Black
  • Collar: Teal
Comments:
  • What is a Black Heron? I have seen it with Goose and Dyed Bronze Mallard Wings, and I have seen it mostly tinsel body and combination black and tinsel. So this is my interpretaion.
  • The head position is good, but maybe still a little large.
  • The collar was tied large intentionally, with an emphasis on a black teal flank feather.
  • The collar was tied after the hackle tips, to allow a flatter base for the wing tips. Jury is still out.
  • The wingtips lie flatter (good), but still need better tenting.
  • The wingtips are too long, or the hook is too small.
  • The BEP broke on winding in, so I went to a collar hackle. Not a bad save.
    • ◦Went with the BEP versus Whiting, as I think the black design needed the bold hackle.
 
#12 ·
There are two well known Black Heron patterns.
The first is the very old traditional pattern recorded by Knox in Autumns on the Spey. The pattern is:
Body is Black wool with bars (flat) gold tinsel. Between the bars two threads of gold and silver beading (round tinsel). Tips of the black feathers from the breast the Heron (this would be the great blue heron). Wing is mallard.
The second is the Syd Glasso Black Heron. The pattern is:
Hook: Salmon Iron to suit a currently available hook close in style to the Sealey hook used by Syd
Glasso is the Alec Jackson Low Water Dee hook
Rear Body: Flat silver tinsel covering slightly less than half the shank
Hackle: Gray Heron or substitute
Rib: Silver Oval Tinsel, size to suit
Front Body: Black Seal or substitute covering slightly more than half the shank
Throat Hackle: Natural Guinea Fowl flank
Wings: Gray or Black goose shoulder strips mounted as bronze mallard or full feathers dyed black
Head: Black
 
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