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INTRUDER-- What is it?

8K views 28 replies 16 participants last post by  flyfishingric 
#1 ·
seriously?
not trying to argue or fight... but what makes a fly an intruder?
It seams like every large tube or stinger fly is automatically called and intruder

SO
what makes it an intruder?
a sparse fly with a large profile?
a double collar/skirt?
a long/large flowing fly?

here are some of my flies... intruder or not?

Double collar/skirt
large profile with minimal materials


What about these?
larger hollow looking flies



what about this?
double collar/skirt
stinger on a shank
LA fibers to keep the marabou


what about this?
some ice dub, marabou, and schlappen
 
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#2 ·
I was having this conversation with a friend, and he sent me this link http://forum.skagitmaster.com/index.php?topic=311.0

Pretty interesting to see two of the folks who were on the front end disagree, and that the disagreement is focusing on different issues. kind of like "It's an intruder if "A"" and the other guy says, "no it's not, because of "B"". Good read.

P.S. I don't know what the third one down should be called, but I'd fish it with confidence anywhere!:smokin:
 
#3 ·
Co-incidence??

I've just posted up a "Mini 'truder", and certainly more bulk than these beauties ;)

I'd go for 3rd down also :cool:

Mike
 
#5 ·
These are all killer ties. Very creative color/material combos. I especially like the one tied on the shank.

I've kind of always just assumed (maybe incorrectly) that an intruder was a style of fly and not an exact pattern. Its really up to tyer to interpret or substitute materials. I don't have much experience with intruders...but id like to wrap up some smallish ones for this spring...hopefully on tubes.

Cool stuff.
 
#8 ·
In the thread I posted, Ed Ward says:

The original intent of the Intruder was to tie a large profile fly, SUGGESTIVE of life via movement and transluscence. At the time that the concept was originated, existing large profile flies (mainly GP types and Marabous), though effective, didn't quite incorporate all of these components into one - the GP types had the profile but lacked movement and transluscence, while the Marabous had movement, but lacked volume when subjected to current. The main concept of the Intruder was that predatory response could be better elicited by mimicking "life" in a general manner PRIMARILY through movement, rather than just imitation through "shape" (GP = prawn/shrimp silhouette). And, that this movement would be more effective if created through "engineering" of material placement, rather than material characteristics alone (softness of marabou = good movement, but poor "volume"). Thus, a properly engineered Intruder produces a shape and movement in the water that is easily suggestive of a prawn or squid or baitfish, all at the same time, while also being more castable in relation to it's size because those effects were created through "engineering" rather than just globbing increasing bunches of material together to achieve size. The first versions of Intruders were in fact tied on large single hooks (partridge M's and N's), and it was only after experiencing unacceptable hooking injuries on fish with these types of hooks that the shank approach was devised.

So by that definition, the fly has to somewhat hold its profile under water pressure to be an intruder. It's funny all the guys complaining that ameherst doesn't move, and that's exactly what Ed Ward wants. Of course Ed Ward is most associated with it, but others were working with him. If you read the post I linked above you'll see that one famous "early adopter" thinks it's the foundation that matters most. Namely tied on a shank, and with a detaching hook.

So what do YOU think Ramcatt? Are they intruders? I'm still sticking with my original answer. Drop 4 or 5 of the third one down in my shirt pocket, and I'm ready to go fish :chuckle:
 
#10 ·
It is both a set of specific patterns and a specific style of fly. Ed Ward developed it, eventhough there are others who will try to take credit for it, it is, was, and will be Ed's design, just like SPADE is Bob Arnold's fly. Yes, there were some others who were aware of what Ed was doing and his experiements leading up to what finally became his INTRUDER; however, just because they were around and aware of what Ed was doing doesn't make the fly or it's style of tying there's (anymore than those who were around and aware of Lee Wullf's experimenting with heavily hackled hair wing dries being able to say they were part of the evolution of Wullf's style).

Unfortunately, far too often today people want to take credit for a fly style who didn't design it, or claim they were in on the design of the fly, when they weren't-they just happened to be around the vicinity of the person (in this case Ed Ward), who designed it. And even more often, people bastardize the original style's design to eithe make it easier to tie, or because they haven't developed the skills needed to tie it and call anything thing with a single characteristic of the original design that type of fly.

The INTRUDER is not an INTRUDER unless it it tied in the style Ed designed it to be tied in complete with pheasant hackle, spun deer hair collars, and led-eyes. Every part of Ed's INTRUDER is tied like it is so the finished fly performs in a very specific manner when fished. Just like a Glasso spey is not a Glasso spey unless it is tied like a traditional spey fly that happens to have tented hackle tip wings instead of bronze mallard. So-called spey flies that have no wings aren't spey flies at all; they are palmer hackle spiders, but not spey flies because an essential element of a spey fly is the short tented wing.
 
#11 ·
its an intruder if you say thats what you tied, your version of it atleast, no they are not ed wards intruder but lets face it only eds intruders are eds intruders :)
also i think ed uses the deer hair collar to prop his collars up if he doesnt have ostrich that umbrellas up by itself (like he said the other guy in the dvd did).
Said something like the fibres are to long and soft unlike the feathers old mate has which umbrella without the need for the deer hair to prop it up.
And the one on his dvd didnt have lead eyes so its not a "must have" part of it, the link to the skagit master forum goes onto explain that bit.
 
#12 ·
I would say "no" they aren't intruders, but that would be based on the recipe in Dec's Book.

Do I love the ties and various renditions from all tyers.....heck yeah!! They help to spawn creative thinking.

Should the word "Intruder" be used like the terms "dry fly", "streamer", or "nymph" ......i don't know but maybe that's another topic.
 
#14 ·
Should the word "Intruder" be used like the terms "dry fly", "streamer", or "nymph" ......i don't know but maybe that's another topic.
I think that was maybe the underlying basis for my orignal post

Is "INTRUDER" no longer a pattern, rather a type of fly... ln that "dry", "streamer", and "nymph" are types of flies

...
For me I like to see accuracy in the information posted, it matters to me. Not sure why I am so protective, maybe it’s a history thing. So if you think all flies tied with marabou are Popsicles or anything tied with green and black is a green but skunk. Or anything tied with long flowing hackles is a spey fly, or anything tied fore and aft is an Intruder, maybe a little research is needed.

The rule I use is if I tie the fly using the original recipe with the original material I will call it by name. If I substitute material or add to the pattern, I will call it a variation. It’s that simple.

...
i like that

so we are now seeing "intruder variations"
I'd be interested to see the True materials list/tutorial for a Intruder... not a varriation
 
#13 · (Edited)
I would say none are Intruders

Well said Flytyer. Frankly I have seen vary few flies posted as intruders on this site that even come close to the pattern. Not sure why the term Intruder stuck as a class of flies. I am sure it is mostly caused by a lack of knowledge. Anyone, including myself can post information on the web, right or wrong, and it is up to the reader to decipher if it’s valid or not. For someone just learning it can be quite confusing. Thank goodness we have historians like Flytyer that keep the flow of information in check.

Here a question to help illustrate where I am trying to go with this. What is the difference between a Skagit Minnow and an Intruder? To me they are shank flies, not Intruders nor minnows. Steelhead fly tying is unique in that it is wide open and the need to “match the hatch” is not part of the program. For that reason alone steelhead fly design is pretty much left up to the tyer. There are some basic rules that need to be followed but anyone can put their own twist into the design of a fly and call it theirs.

For me I like to see accuracy in the information posted, it matters to me. Not sure why I am so protective, maybe it’s a history thing. So if you think all flies tied with marabou are Popsicles or anything tied with green and black is a green but skunk. Or anything tied with long flowing hackles is a spey fly, or anything tied fore and aft is an Intruder, maybe a little research is needed.

The rule I use is if I tie the fly using the original recipe with the original material I will call it by name. If I substitute material or add to the pattern, I will call it a variation. It’s that simple.

One more thing and I will shut up. Calling Ed out on this one. He states he went to the shank type set up because of the damage a large hook causes. To me that thought process is flawed. I cannot remember what magazine it was in but Dec submitted an article with photos. One of the photos was of Ed holding a bright winter fish. There was an Intruder detached from the hook that looked to be 5 or so inches long. The hook was imbedded in the jaw on the outside of the mouth. There was a two inch gash from the point of where the hook went in to where it came to rest. You could see the gash was deep by the color of the opened flesh, there was no blood but the damage look dramatic. I personally have experienced the same thing using large shank type flies. Bringing us back to the blood sport thing.
 
#16 ·
I cannot remember what magazine it was in but Dec submitted an article with photos. One of the photos was of Ed hold a bright winter fish. There was an Intruder detached from the hook that looked to be 5 or so inches long. The hook was imbedded in the jaw on the outside of the mouth. There was a two inch gash from the point of where the hook went in to where it came to rest. You could see the gash was deep by the color of the opened flesh, there was no blood but the damage look dramatic. I personally have experienced the same thing using large shank type flies. Bringing us back to the blood sport thing.
I actually remember that. Was it in the preview of one of the chapters of Dec's book that ran in a magazine? Many still claim, with anecdata and the support of studies, that a small treble, and I'm talking 8 and lower does less damage. But yes I agree, having seen it in saltwater and fresh, long flies, depending on where the fish hits the fly, can do some pretty nasty damage on the outside of the mouth as the hook tries to gain purchase. But it's also true that a bigger, longer shank hook can really do some damage from the initial hole size, and the leverage on the shank during the fight. I actually don't really fish intruders, and almost everything I tie lays in your palm with no overhang. But I still will place my wager on a smaller, I generally use size 6 or 4 at the most, short shank hook to do less damage, regardless of size of fly.
 
#15 ·
Fly tyer and Marty, both very good detailed explanations, thank you. I have limited tying skill. I have limited tying materials. When I tie a fly it often is by sight interpreteation and also likely has materials substituted. As such I tie flies. My fore and aft flies are intruder like, but clearly not intruders. My maribous are full and flowing, but not popscicles. My spey flies likely have improper proportions and the wings are likely suspect at best. As such I tie flies, and reading your posts has reminded me to be cautious of what I call a fly such that proper credit for patterns that have inspired me is given. Thank you both for the great information and recalibration! Ed
 
#19 ·
Here is a link to a SBS I did.

http://speypages.com/speyclave/showthread.php?t=31417&highlight=intruder+marty

Not saying it is perfect but it is as close to the original as I know it. Even Ed has changed the way he ties his fly both in materials used and the way he attaches them. At first Ed was splitting pheasant and wrapping it like hackle, now he uses a dubbing loop. Things do change over the years and so do fly tyers. As do their signature flies. If the originator makes the change it’s still his fly, if someone else makes the change it a variation. Will you ever be tying a Marty’s or a Dec’s Intruder, nope, it’s Ed’s Intruder.

I forgot to comment on you flies. Very well done, all look like they will hunt but the third one down is a killer. Really like the look. Nice set of tube flies.
 
#21 ·
According to the recipe in Hogans book chenille is used for the head not dubbing. Shame on you Marty.

I dislike that many flies out there are called "intruders." I have many versions of intruders that I have tied up over the years. I use whatever I have within reach at times and other times I will go searching for a particular material for a specific function. I always called my versions "truders" because it was not exact to the original pattern that I have found. Now a days many tiers out there are calling thier creations intruders. But they dont look like or use even half of the original materials. Since everybody else is calling thier patterns intruders I got lazy and started to as well. We nead to be kept in line with the original patterns or all will get forgotten and mucked up. Intruders have become a style. What falls into this style? That is up for debate and may never get worked out because ther are so many qualifying features to consider. In conclusion Ram none of your flies are true intruders but more of a intruder style. The third one down is sexy as all get out and should never be taken off. Some of them should find a home in a box of mine. But that forth one would pull a fish from around here. So I am kinda drawn to that one.
 
#25 ·
I'd call the first an intruder variation, and 2,3 & 5 spiders- between them that's about 80% of what I've fished the last couple years. different color combinations, but similar. The marabou I'd refer to as a shank fly.

This is probably all a moot point with me anyway as I can hardly remember the name to anything., but my taste in flies evolves all the time, based on whim as much as anything.
 
#28 ·
i would suggest that the use of chemically sharp hooks would be the reason why there was a gash in said photo of fish, its almost to the point that if a fish farts next to your fly they can be hooked with how sharp hooks are these days.
Im sure it wasnt deliberate, not suggesting anyone said it was either, but with a fly swinging and wriggling in the water the hook would have a similar effect as a hard body lure, the swimming action shakes the hooks all over the place and like i said before, a fish farts next to the hooks and it hooks up, the reaction at the other end will be strike as the fly gets hit/bumped/farted next to, end result being that there is no definite way to avoid a fish being hooked where ever the hook finds purchase, even circle hooks can find purchase away from the corner of the mouth, iv had this while chasing northern bluefin tuna with candies tied on circle hooks, have hooked them in the corner of the mouth, in the gill plate, in the pectoral fin, even across the top of the body before the dorsal fin.
Using smaller hooks would cut down (excuse the pun) the potential for damage but even then iv had light gauge hooks snap before, leaving the fish with an interesting implant.
So im not sure there is a perfect science to avoiding any fish damage once hooked, it can be reduced in some ways but there will always be damage when you mix fish and hooks together
 
#29 ·
MHO is that an intruder is a fly that makes a fish have a predatory response whether the fish wants to or not. I believe this would be a fly that has a large silhouette and lots of movement in the water. So i guess there are many different patterns that accomplish this.

By the way, impressive ties!!

Ric
 
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