dumb newbie? throwing a teeny line W/ tfo 117 switch - Spey Pages
 
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-11-2013, 05:01 PM Thread Starter
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dumb newbie? throwing a teeny line W/ tfo 117 switch

hey guys, hard core lurker hear, love this site, especially the hooks and feathers section. so i have a question, i am just starting to get into 2 hand rods, got a tfo 11ft 7wt switch from a member here in the classifieds, for the coastal rivers i fish in northern california(russian, guala,garcia and eel). as the season is approaching, if it ever rains again here, and with the holidays i am a little strapped for excess cash and was wondering if it is possible to cast a teeny t-200 or teeny t-300(which i have both alredy) using the skagit/spey methods of casting, it seems that since they are heads of 24ft length with a running line it is similar to a skagit line, or am i way off on this, thanks for any information, cameron

p.s. my method of casting instruction so far is watching ed wards skagit master1 and thats about it so far.
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-11-2013, 08:33 PM
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Might be difficult but not impossible to lift the head part out of the water. In reality you can spey cast with any line, it's just a style of casting. I think the T300 is 300 gr for that 24'. 11' 7wts usually have a grain window around 400.

Last edited by DrBob; 12-11-2013 at 09:05 PM.
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-11-2013, 08:41 PM
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I did a boneheaded thing recently and left my spey reel behind on a long trip. In desperation, I put a T-300 on my 12'6'' Echo Classic 6/7. It wasn't ideal, but it was extremely fishable. As long as the line has enough mass (and surface "stick" / ability to create some surface tension on the water) to bend your rod, it will cast. You may not be tossing perfect loops at 100 feet, but I'd wager that you will be able to launch some flies into holding water.

Put those lines on a couple of reels, put 'em on your rod, and go fishing. You've got nothing to lose.

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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-11-2013, 08:58 PM
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Purely from a casting perspective, it is probably possible to get this to work, however, to be honest, it is hard for me to think of a worse rig for a beginner to start with. Well, maybe a long-belly full sinker. That would be worse.

There are a bunch of potential issues.

First off, you are talking a full-sink line. Full floaters are the easiest to cast, sink tip lines take a little getting used to, full-sink lines are yet more problematic, frankly they are a bit of a pain to cast. You are going to have to get your head up to the surface before casting, your timing must be spot-on so your line doesn't sink again, there are just a whole set of issues you don't want to worry about as beginning speycaster. Don't get me wrong, a really short full-sink line is not *that* difficult to cast, but, it could really complicate the learning process.

Second is weight. I don't have your rod, but I looked at the Rio specs. They are recommending around 350 gr for a Skagit head, and around 300 gr for a Scandi head. A skagit head is not a full line, you can think of it as the fly line "belly" to which you add an additional tip to complete the rig. Considering a short skagit head in the 17-20 foot range, with the tip, comparable total line weight would be upwards of 430 gr, length in the 27-30 foot range. Compared to this your 300gr outfit would somewhat light and a tad short. Rio recommends around 300gr for a scandi head, for touch-and-go casting you would be right on their spec for touch-and-go casting and, again, a bit short, but not excessively so. Shorter may be better for a full-sink in terms of making it easier to extract the line, but, it also complicates your timing, which is one reason beginners struggle with short heads on short rods. Not a show-stopped, but a bit suboptimal.

Third is taper. I believe the Teeny is a level line? Level lines are not so fun to spey cast. And, all the stats I quoted above have baked into them assumptions about taper which your line does not satisfy. Again, this is a long way from being a show-stopper, but it is just one more variable that, for a beginner, adds potential frustration.

Where in NorCal are you located?
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-11-2013, 09:17 PM
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One other thought, if you are really strapped for cash, get a used Skagit off the classifieds here, or on closeout somewhere, get a mono runner, amnesia or Berkely big game are both cheap, call around for a shop that has T-material in bulk and see if they'll send you a 10' section, you are set to fish the coast for under $50. Better yet get a used scandi line that is heavy for your rod, cut off the first 10-12' and loop the ends, now for the same cost you have a makeshift "skagit head" that can be rigged with either a floating or sinking tip.
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-12-2013, 02:21 AM Thread Starter
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thank you very much for the responses, troutless thanks, im in northern sonoma county, and thanks for the detailed response. guess i will just wait till i can afford the right set up and just keep using the single hand rods,with no rain, its not like i have to throw long casts for awhile, cameron
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-12-2013, 04:57 PM
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Bwodun,

I have an old Teeny 300, and as best I recall, it's best at catching the river bottom. Too much sink for most places, IMO.

You should be able to get hold of 15' of T-8 and 24 to 27' of level 10, 11, or 12 wt floater for a modest cost. Add loops and make your own Skagit head and a 10 and 5' section of looped T-8 should cover most fishing spots on your rivers.

Sg
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-13-2013, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by troutless View Post
Purely from a casting perspective, it is probably possible to get this to work, however, to be honest, it is hard for me to think of a worse rig for a beginner to start with. Well, maybe a long-belly full sinker. That would be worse.

There are a bunch of potential issues.

First off, you are talking a full-sink line.

Second is weight.

Third is taper. I believe the Teeny is a level line?

Where in NorCal are you located?
The T-300 is a sink tip line with a very pronounced taper; 30 feet of sinking shooting head, a short, steep rear taper, and a floating running line. That 300 grains is measured over 30 feet. At 60 feet (where spey lines are measured, I believe), I would guess that this line weighs out in the ballpark of 450 grains, as the taper from the shooting head to the much thinner running line is very short. In other words, the T-300 is pretty close to the recommended grain window for the rod in question. If anything, it's a bit on the heavy side - and therefore more likely to load the rod with less effort.

With my own (granted very limited) experience chucking it with a two hander, it was fishable with a 12.5 foot 6/7 rod. I could get 70+ feet easily out of a snap-T or circle spey cast; more would have been doable, but on the Niagara, most of the fish caught lie close to shore, so I didn't try.

Certainly, a line system designed to fit the rod in question would perform batter and be easier to learn with. But, if the choice is fish with the Teeny or stay home, there's no reason to stay home.

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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-13-2013, 12:21 PM
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bwodun if you send me a PM with your address I will send you something to practice with. No obligation but the return postage.

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How you get the line out and fishing is personal preference so as long as it works and is easy no one should care but the caster. MSB
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-13-2013, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bwodun View Post
thank you very much for the responses, troutless thanks, im in northern sonoma county, and thanks for the detailed response. guess i will just wait till i can afford the right set up and just keep using the single hand rods,with no rain, its not like i have to throw long casts for awhile, cameron
Having lived in Santa Rosa and Healdsburg for many years the rivers you listed above were the one's I fished unless I headed all the way up to the Smith or Chetco (with these two you frequently needed a 9wt and sink tips.

The other rivers you've listed are really pretty small save for right after a 'Hawaiian Express' going over the area. With all the vineyards, and lack of ground cover all these were running choc-brown ..... but it got the fish past the Seals.

End game was (save for a couple of specific places) all I needed was a long leader (9-12 feet) and a weighted fly to work 95% of the water you could access. And that was another problem ......

Got to know quite a few vineyard Mgr's. Handing over a fresh caught winter steelhead made for good friends.





Fred Evans - White City, Oregon
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-13-2013, 04:59 PM Thread Starter
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Having lived in Santa Rosa and Healdsburg for many years the rivers you listed above were the one's I fished unless I headed all the way up to the Smith or Chetco (with these two you frequently needed a 9wt and sink tips.

The other rivers you've listed are really pretty small save for right after a 'Hawaiian Express' going over the area. With all the vineyards, and lack of ground cover all these were running choc-brown ..... but it got the fish past the Seals.

End game was (save for a couple of specific places) all I needed was a long leader (9-12 feet) and a weighted fly to work 95% of the water you could access. And that was another problem ......

Got to know quite a few vineyard Mgr's. Handing over a fresh caught winter steelhead made for good friends.
i live in healdsburg, and yes i have a lot of vineyard manager friends, i have been fishing the russian since i moved here 11 years ago, with single hand rods, but there are definitely places where a spey cast would be more beneficial since there is not a lot of room for a back cast in most stretches of the river. a friend turned me on too two hand rods last season and he was able to reach much better lies than i could, soooo..here i am, thank you all for the responses and the PMs with offers,such a great community here, cameron
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-13-2013, 05:24 PM
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i have been fishing the russian since i moved here 11 years ago, with single hand rods, but there are definitely places where a spey cast would be more beneficial since there is not a lot of room for a back cast in most stretches of the river.
If nobody has pointed it out, you can spey-cast perfectly well with a single-handed rod. Learning the single-handed spey casts will help a lot with the room-in-back issues at moderate distances. Definitely the two-handers have more reach, make it easier to manipulate larger amounts of line at distance, and to pick up long heavy tips. But, the casts and core of the technique are the same and there is no rule that says you have to learn spey casting with a double-hander.
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-13-2013, 05:36 PM
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The T-300 is a sink tip line with a very pronounced taper; 30 feet of sinking shooting head, a short, steep rear taper, and a floating running line. That 300 grains is measured over 30 feet. At 60 feet (where spey lines are measured, I believe), I would guess that this line weighs out in the ballpark of 450 grains, as the taper from the shooting head to the much thinner running line is very short. In other words, the T-300 is pretty close to the recommended grain window for the rod in question. If anything, it's a bit on the heavy side - and therefore more likely to load the rod with less effort.
Most people are going to speycast a shooting head system with the running line junction at the tip plus or minus a few feet, and for figuring where the system fits relative to the rod grain window, it's the weight of the line outside the tip that matters. So, 300 gr, which is certainly not on the "heavy side" for a 7-wt rod and a sustained anchor cast.

I have to admit, the possibility of speycasting a full-sink shooting head with thirty feet of running line overhang had not occurred to me.
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-13-2013, 09:13 PM
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Most people are going to speycast a shooting head system with the running line junction at the tip plus or minus a few feet, and for figuring where the system fits relative to the rod grain window, it's the weight of the line outside the tip that matters. So, 300 gr, which is certainly not on the "heavy side" for a 7-wt rod and a sustained anchor cast.

I have to admit, the possibility of speycasting a full-sink shooting head with thirty feet of running line overhang had not occurred to me.
Just speaking from experience...Having actually cast the line in question using a sustained anchor cast, I found that it loaded a 12.5 foot, 6/7 rod quite easily. I did "choke up" on the head a bit and had a few feet of the sink tip inside the rod tip, but it was a very usable set up.

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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 12-13-2013, 09:34 PM
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Just speaking from experience...Having actually cast the line in question using a sustained anchor cast, I found that it loaded a 12.5 foot, 6/7 rod quite easily. I did "choke up" on the head a bit and had a few feet of the sink tip inside the rod tip, but it was a very usable set up.
I have no doubt that you cast it fine. So, what motivated to you to bring the head inside the rod tip?
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