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Tip/leader turn over

5K views 29 replies 22 participants last post by  Captcaveman 
#1 ·
I am using a 12 1/2' 6wt Redington Duelly with a 420 grain Airflow Rage head. I have been using a short 5' T8 tip and about a 3 foot leader with a streamer. I am new to spey casting and am loving it. I am struggling to get my tip/leader to turn over at the completion of my cast. I generally use a double spey, a snap T, and a snake roll cast. I am wondering if this is all technique or is it tackle too. Any tips would be appreciated...thanks.
 
#4 ·
Watch your D loop as drifter said. You should have plenty of head, tip, and Tippett length to get a good anchor. When I was learning I would circle up to form my d loop and after a split second the weight of the terminal rig would pull my rod then I give it a nice bottom hand. Start slowly. When you have your forward stroke and bottom hand working in sync you will see everything happen. When you introduce your top hand (and push the rod) things kinda fall apart.
 
#6 ·
It’s definitely both, tackle and technique in this case.

From the tackle side you need at least 10‘ Polyleader plus a tippet of around 4 to 8 ft for your Rage, depending of Sink rate of Polyleader and presentation needs.
A Rage is already middle and tip heavy and it’s short. It’s a line which must be completed - with a leader, long enough and tapered; at least in the lower weight spectrum.
One can add heavier tips on a heavy Rage head, if it fits ones taste and needs.
But your Rage is only 420 grain and you put T8 on. T-material is also level material, not tapered (what adds even more tip weight to the Rage) and needs adaption in technique. It’s also much too short for a proper anchor, not to talk about presentation.

I would highly recommend a Polyleader of at least 10’ for your 12’6 rod and the 420 grain Rage head. Polyleader in different densities.
You won’t miss much depth, but you win a lot in performance, casting and presentation.

I am sure, you will feel the difference at once and you can work on your technique then.
But to work on technique with a bad line setup and bad rod-line pairing is useless.

I don’t know your rod and if your Rage fits in general.
Nevertheless one can only try with a well balanced line system.

Good luck !
 
#7 ·
I totally agree with the polyleader and rage heads. I would use a light, sparse fly as well. If I have been fishing single hand lately, I tend to punch with the top hand resulting in either a tailing loop or poor turnover. Focussing on the d-loop formation as previously mentioned is solid. I would also recommend starting with short casts until positive turnover to fully straiten leader is consistent, then strip out shooting line in 1 ft increments until a comfortable fishing distance is achieved with turnover. Next, wait for the grab.
 
#8 ·
Tight loops & line speed will do the trick. For starters, watch, listen to, your sink tip & fly. Odds are you are slipping/pulling your anchor. When you do that, you don't get a good rod load. Before starting the sweep, give the tip & fly a chance to get a good bite on the water.

Another common mistake is not maintaining constant tension on the line throughout the sweep, all the way to when you finally pull the trigger! I see many beginners pausing , even to the extent of a full stop at the end of the sweep. Not necessary on short head line systems. One you start the sweep, do not stop or slow down until you pull the trigger. Doing so allows gravity to do it's thing. The line falls to the water inducing excess line stick, but even worse, the rod unloads! And then the novice whacks the hell out of the rod in an effort to compensate. The results range anywhere from unsatisfactory to disastrous.

Poly leaders are not only expensive, they are a gamble when it comes to taper & weight distribution. They are not generally designed to add anything other than tippet material & a fly. not too heavy a fly at that! Were it me, I would increase the length of of T8 to 11 or 12 feet & start by stripping off the last one foot of tungsten, looping the end & then looping about 4 ft of tippet material to that. If you are unable to get a tight enough loop with enough line speed to turn that over, it's a simple matter to strip another 6 or 8 inches of tungsten off your sink tip, until you get to something that works.

Twelve feet of T8 isn't gong to take you straight to the bottom, unless you make such a bad cast you completely ignore what the fly & sink tip are doing while you attempt to untangle your mess of slack line laying on the water. :Eyecrazy: BTDT lesson learned.
 
#9 ·
There may be tackle issues that are making it harder to cast than it needs to be, but there is no fundamental reason that rig won't turn over, so strictly speaking this is a technique issue. Generally speaking -- the longer and heavier the stuff at the end is, the harder it is to get enough energy out there to turn it over. You have a relatively light, quite short tip, and a quite short leader. If anything, the problem that is more likely to occur is *too fast* a turnover of the rig and too much energy going into the fly, leading to clunky,over-powered premature turnover.

Having said that, there may be tackle issues that are making it harder to cast than it needs to be, and there is a wildcard in the fly. You say a streamer. Well, be more specific. Streamer covers a lot of ground. A 12" lead-eyed muskie fly, or a whispy little Grey Ghost ? Get rid of the big junk for starters.

Technique issues are hard to debug over the internet and pretty much impossible without more details. Here are some things you can try.

First, to figure out if it's something related to the fly, cut it off and replace with a piece of yarn. If the behavior doesn't change, go to next step. If the problem gets better or goes away, probably you're introducing slack into your leader and/or tip before the forward cast. Look at your anchor position right before going into the forward cast. Suspect a bloody-L. If the problem gets worse, probably you're blowing your anchor. First, try slowing down and using less power. Keep everything smooth. And read JDJones post. Lengthening the rig, either going to a poly, a longer tip, or a longer leader, can help hide this problem, but fundamentally you need to learn to control your timing and power to not blow the anchor. On the other side of anchor problems.....listen to your anchor. Do you have a nice crisp release,or, a big slurp from sticking too much line on the water ? Big slurp = dead line = no turnover. (less likely with a short rig but possible if you drop your tip in back).

If your anchors are fine, you now need to figure out the next most likely problem. Start by checking alignment. Go cast on still water. Are your casts landing straight, tracking in a path in line from the D-loop to target, or, is there horizontal movement relative to the 180 plane ? Or worse, curves? Poor tracking will not help turnover.

If none of the above apply, you're likely introducing slack somewhere in the cast. There are so many possible places. You have to go through the cast step by step to find all the places. Very common : take video to see if you are creeping, leading to premature unloading of the rod, possibly in turn encouraging excessive early power application. Also common and often overlooked : slack in the lift that never goes away.

You also did not say at what distance this is occurring. How much, if any, line are you trying to shoot? At some point, the problem for any caster becomes turnover. Start short, no shooting line, and work up. If the issue is really you can't turnover past a certain distance, this is where the refinements of tighter loops, higher line speeds, and particularly as has already been mentioned, removing the dreaded top-hand thrust, start to come into play.
 
#10 ·
I think your leader is too short for a clean presentation, but if your technique was on, it would be turning over too hard, not failing to turn over. I'd make the tip 10 ft, either a poly (cleaner, more elegant), or the t8 should work too (about the same weight as a poly. Make sure your fly is not too heavy for the rig, and then practice your cast- slow down, more bottom hand. A big soft loop that doesn't turn over is usually a dominant top hand.
 
#11 ·
Would also agree with what many have already said about the polyleaders. While many people claim to have success throwing rather large/heavy tips with the Rage, I never found that to be the case with me. Once I went to using that line with polyleaders exclusively, it kind of all came together.
 
#12 ·
Allow me to add one more little piece of advice. Decide whether you want to learn Scandi or Skagit style. Each style has it's advantages & disadvantages, as they were each designed to do different things. Learn one & learn it well before going to the other. There are many "experts" of each style. Pick one, buy their DVD, & study it religiously.
 
#13 ·
Curious.

With me, the problem was the opposite, the line tip and the leader turned with too much strength, sometimes even getting a kick!

Slowed the final acceleration in the forward cast, unless facing a strong wind, and things seem to have improved.

Bought the line (a kit with 3 tips) because I was told that against a strong wind it is the best line around, providing a good turnover, which to my experience seems to be the case.

I was also told this a line to fish the upper layers, and not one to go down deep ...
 
#14 ·
Aim for the tops of the trees on release.
Pull your bottom hand into your belly-button = more power, high-stop...
Keep the elbow of your upper hand arm, into your waist. Imagine you are gripping an iPhone under your armpit.
Never have more line out of the reel than you can cast.

These points will help stop the rod tip up, your hands in the same plane and give you more power.

Perfect turn-over on a short cast will catch you many many more fish than dumping a long cast. Don’t do the latter. Accept your range and concentrate on perfect presentation/your technique. Range will naturally follow.

Tight lines.
Ed
 
#18 ·
Ed,
So interesting you called out aim for the trees, something I kept telling myself using a SH rod when distance mattered going after steelhead & salmon. With Spey, the gut punch you mentioned helps me remember this. Ah yes, no more line than you can cast. One more thing, Point P emphasized by one of the above Jedi Masters (Bostari?) has helped me enormously. Best Regards from a colonist.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Bare in mind, Rage lines are designed for beating wind.The fact that some get used for casting heavy tips is not really their primary purpose and its only fair to expect things to be a little less than perfect.
I've one or two Rage lines ! and they all get used with at least a 10ft poly and 6ft of cast material.I've not had any problems whatsoever ever at all turning over copper tubes with this set up.Now, a Rage will cast better still with a 15ft poly and the same 6ft length of cast material.Once you get the front end effectively anchored in your D loop, you won't need loads of "oomph" to get the line to work, just a steady up n out forward stroke and the line will go for absolute miles.You can use either polys or equal lengths of tapered leader to gain the same casting results.
I'd respectfully suggest if you want to heave lengths of T stuff about, go for a Skagit and do the job just right!.
You will however be able to cast and turn over tips of the Versitip(multi tip) persuasion, especially those of 10ft or 12ft quite easily-you will want to factor in the weight of the tip however along with the Rage itself to your rods grain weight casting capabilities.The Hardy 12ft tips from the Rocket heads are particularly suitable and do an amazing job.They're available in two sizes which should suit switch rod and conventional double hander requirements(both sizes are available in full sets which with a bit of thought and a purchase of the correct Rage is a handy outfit!).
Yes you can make do and mend with T tips, but its not the lines primary forte, stick to what its good at and it will deliver in spades.
Yorkie.
 
#16 ·
I have a 12 1/2’ 6wt Spey and a 420 grain rage head. With either a 10’ poly leader and about 4-6’ of tippet or a tapered leader to 15’ it’s really nice. Throw T-tips on and it sucks! Also not good for big flies
 
#20 ·
T8 is nice. Sinks faster than sinking type III but not too fast. A T8 tip is more pleasant to cast than, let's say T14.

8X10 = 80 grains. Your setup should be more than capable. Make it simple, cut a 10 foot T8 leader.

Once you get the hang of it, try the same sinking leader in a 14 foot length and then, if you wish, cut back as JD Jones describes above. Perhaps cut off a foot each time and try again.

Normally tapering the leader does not really matter but as you are learning, I would attach about 18" of heavier, thick leader butt, e.g., 25 lb. Maxima Chameleon. Then double surgeon knot (or similar) down to 10 or 12 lb. test tippet (Maxima). The thicker butt will absorb some of the punishment if you happen to inadvertently 'crack the whip'.

Total leader length: a metre plus. Start with four feet.

To reiterate YORKIE's suggestion: A compact Skagit head should deliver T8 and heavier tips with more facility than an Airflow Rage Head.

So, good intuition, good questions. Yes, there are some equipment changes you could make that would make the learning how to cast process easier.

After that.......

Stop fishing. Practice. Often. Many shorter sessions are better than long, grueling sessions. Aim to perfect short, medium, efficient, effortless casts.

Tie wool in place of a hook. During the same practice session, try out both a Skagit set up and a Scandi head if you have one. Go back and forth between more classic touch 'n go Spey casting and Sustained-anchor, Skagit-style casting. Emphasize the underhand for both styles.

Rest often.

Learn to visually follow the D-loop formation.

Slow everything down till the cast collapses; start again.



Welcome to the obsession.
 
#21 ·
Perhaps a more firm stop of the forward stroke with a slightly high rod tip.

I use some rather strange leader - mini head combinations and have deduced that the turn over is generally a matter of technique not the terminal tackle.

I don't say much here these days because I feel I am shouting my advice into the void but..……. Here are some thoughts from the Ardster: you are fishing a streamer. When fishing a streamer there is no such thing as a 'bad cast'. If it lands in the river it's a good cast.

When a cast fails to fully turn over you can bet that the fly will have more time to sink prior to coming under tension from the line which is being bowed into a downstream arc by the current. If the tip and tippet land in such a manner that you just can't stand it then give a short twitch of the rod tip and line and you'll straighten the whole works out subsurface. Through reading I have come to the conclusion that there is way too much attention given to having a perfect cast. At times this preoccupation with pretty casts detracts from ones developing good fishing skills.

Regardless of which method you chose to deal with your unsatisfactory casts I would recommend not ripping it back from the water just to try again, thus the if it lands in the river theory. Ripping up what you see as a bad cast can and in some cases will put a fish off or down, fish them all as if they were picture perfect.

Ard
 
#22 ·
Turnover

First off welcome to the spey casting adventure!!!

There are so many details to master when learning to cast and in my opinion an extra set of eyes from a seasoned caster can go a long way in saving you much frustration and time.

Generally a shorter leader system would turnover your fly and leader too hard unless you are blowing the anchor, letting the D-loop fall or introducing slack... Very difficult to assess over the internet what would take approximately 30 seconds and 2 casts for another person to see what is happening with your cast in person and to offer adjustments.

I agree that there are many tweaks to the leader length which can help, however, as casters, we should be able to adjust our casting to the setup we have and make the cast work even though it is not an optimal setup and will not yield an optimal cast.

Enjoy the adventure!

To tight loops!
 
#24 ·
....

Generally a shorter leader system would turnover your fly and leader too hard ......
Not for a Skagit head married to a sinking tip system. It should cast just fine with a leader + tippet combination that measures roughly a yard. A little more, a little less.

Fishing is important, if not for others, certainly for me. A long leader on a Skagit set up defeats the purposes of using a sinking tip. Might as well go straight to a floating line with a 12 to 18 foot leader which is admittedly much more fun to fish than a sinking tip system.

I occasionally extend the leader + tippet length on a Skagit set-up to 5 or 6 feet if I am fishing light (unweighted) tube flies over a boulder garden. The sinking tip slides over the rocks while the light tube fly rides higher in the water column.
 
#23 ·
Yes, without seeing it is difficult to say why your turnover fails but have two reasons. Often I try to launch a too long cast and sometimes to head wind and there is not energy in line loop to turn the fly. And while trying I cast a Tailing Loop.

Lately I have began casting longer lines using full action rods and it seems that I can't continue accelerate long enough. Or my "muscle memory" after using tip action rods over 30 years kills casting stroke acceleration towards the end? And full action rod straightens too early and line path rise and there comes the TL

Esa
 
#25 ·
Tomofly I agree with your assessment to be spot on. I hear myself saying the exact idea. Another thing the three cast you say you do are the crappiest cast to learn. Learn the single cast and touch and go cast. Also fish with both hands over both shoulders. I cast any line from the same spot every time. Your index is always holding at the same spot. Only toss what you can handle ,like tomofly says.:)
 
#26 · (Edited)
"Aim for the tree tops" & the hard stop @ 10 o-clock, is an old cliche from the days of casting long belly lines. You have to do that when casting those lines other wise the heavy back end will fall on the water before the lighter front end has finished unrolling. Also, unless there is a follow thru after that hard stop at 10 o-clock position, when the line comes tight to the reel, it will snap back & fall short of the target with slack in the system.

Short heads & shooting line is a different ball game. I have found several reasons not to aim for the tree tops when casting short head systems.
  1. The wind is in the tree tops. The fish are in the water.
  2. The higher the cast. the more susceptible it is to being blown off course by the wind.
  3. Gravity & the laws of physics dictate the heavier back end of the line will fall to the water at a faster rate than the lighter front end.
  4. The less time elapses between the butt of the head & the fly hitting the water, the less time the current has to put a bow in the line.
  5. Lacking follow thru, the higher stop will result in snap back when the line comes tight to the reel, putting slack in the line which must then be eliminated by a pull back mend.
  6. The rod tip already being @ 10, most likely 11 o-clock, enough pull back to eliminate the slack is difficult, if not impossible without stripping line.

Like I said in my original post, tight loops & line speed will get you there. The latter being relevant to the former. Cast line drives! Bring the line tight to the reel fully unrolled, one foot off the water. The fly is fishing immediately upon hitting the water!
 
#28 ·
I agree with all of the great advice...10’ Tips, lower hand, min 3.5/4’ tippet, all good info..... I’m assuming Rage is a Skagit style line, which for me, makes it a little difficult to do a snake roll since that cast is not a waterborne anchor and more Scandi. Style cast, but the lower hand... practice your cast using thumb & fore finger on top hand giving all power to low hand...stop your forward cast at 11 o’clock, as someone said earlier “at the trees”.... watch your rooster tail when it stops at the turn you should start to feel the load... it’s time to pull lower hand.... works for me..
 
#30 ·
A polyleader is a leader with a mono core covered in a tapered jacket of different densities of flyline-ish material. They a are made from floating versions all the way to super extra fast sinking versions and in various lengths with core strengths from 8# to 40#. The intermediate one mentioned in the last post sinks at about 1.5 inches per second I believe? Polyleaders are made by Airflo, Versileaders are a similar product made by Rio, and there's probably others that I'm unaware of. They are a nice alternative to T-material if your fishing doesn't require huge/heavy flies and hitting the bottom in heavy current. They also land on the water much quieter than T-material if you've got spooky fish. Personally I love them and they work for 90% of my sinking work, so I only use a skagit head and T-material in extreme circumstances anymore. However... others find them useless. So polyleaders vs T-material is all about your water, your fish, and your personal preference.
 
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