Tip/leader turn over - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-18-2019, 06:20 AM Thread Starter
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Tip/leader turn over

I am using a 12 1/2' 6wt Redington Duelly with a 420 grain Airflow Rage head. I have been using a short 5' T8 tip and about a 3 foot leader with a streamer. I am new to spey casting and am loving it. I am struggling to get my tip/leader to turn over at the completion of my cast. I generally use a double spey, a snap T, and a snake roll cast. I am wondering if this is all technique or is it tackle too. Any tips would be appreciated...thanks.
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-18-2019, 10:03 AM
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Try a bigger D loop and more bottom
hand umph.
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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-18-2019, 10:22 AM
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The sinking tip is on the short side.
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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-18-2019, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by llbdrifter View Post
Try a bigger D loop and more bottom
hand umph.
Watch your D loop as drifter said. You should have plenty of head, tip, and Tippett length to get a good anchor. When I was learning I would circle up to form my d loop and after a split second the weight of the terminal rig would pull my rod then I give it a nice bottom hand. Start slowly. When you have your forward stroke and bottom hand working in sync you will see everything happen. When you introduce your top hand (and push the rod) things kinda fall apart.
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-18-2019, 04:24 PM
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It works kinda like a trebuchet thus making your rod and set up a true siege engine.
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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-19-2019, 05:18 PM
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Itís definitely both, tackle and technique in this case.

From the tackle side you need at least 10Ď Polyleader plus a tippet of around 4 to 8 ft for your Rage, depending of Sink rate of Polyleader and presentation needs.
A Rage is already middle and tip heavy and itís short. Itís a line which must be completed - with a leader, long enough and tapered; at least in the lower weight spectrum.
One can add heavier tips on a heavy Rage head, if it fits ones taste and needs.
But your Rage is only 420 grain and you put T8 on. T-material is also level material, not tapered (what adds even more tip weight to the Rage) and needs adaption in technique. Itís also much too short for a proper anchor, not to talk about presentation.

I would highly recommend a Polyleader of at least 10í for your 12í6 rod and the 420 grain Rage head. Polyleader in different densities.
You wonít miss much depth, but you win a lot in performance, casting and presentation.

I am sure, you will feel the difference at once and you can work on your technique then.
But to work on technique with a bad line setup and bad rod-line pairing is useless.

I donít know your rod and if your Rage fits in general.
Nevertheless one can only try with a well balanced line system.

Good luck !

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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-19-2019, 09:59 PM
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I totally agree with the polyleader and rage heads. I would use a light, sparse fly as well. If I have been fishing single hand lately, I tend to punch with the top hand resulting in either a tailing loop or poor turnover. Focussing on the d-loop formation as previously mentioned is solid. I would also recommend starting with short casts until positive turnover to fully straiten leader is consistent, then strip out shooting line in 1 ft increments until a comfortable fishing distance is achieved with turnover. Next, wait for the grab.

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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-19-2019, 11:02 PM
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Tight loops & line speed will do the trick. For starters, watch, listen to, your sink tip & fly. Odds are you are slipping/pulling your anchor. When you do that, you don't get a good rod load. Before starting the sweep, give the tip & fly a chance to get a good bite on the water.

Another common mistake is not maintaining constant tension on the line throughout the sweep, all the way to when you finally pull the trigger! I see many beginners pausing , even to the extent of a full stop at the end of the sweep. Not necessary on short head line systems. One you start the sweep, do not stop or slow down until you pull the trigger. Doing so allows gravity to do it's thing. The line falls to the water inducing excess line stick, but even worse, the rod unloads! And then the novice whacks the hell out of the rod in an effort to compensate. The results range anywhere from unsatisfactory to disastrous.

Poly leaders are not only expensive, they are a gamble when it comes to taper & weight distribution. They are not generally designed to add anything other than tippet material & a fly. not too heavy a fly at that! Were it me, I would increase the length of of T8 to 11 or 12 feet & start by stripping off the last one foot of tungsten, looping the end & then looping about 4 ft of tippet material to that. If you are unable to get a tight enough loop with enough line speed to turn that over, it's a simple matter to strip another 6 or 8 inches of tungsten off your sink tip, until you get to something that works.

Twelve feet of T8 isn't gong to take you straight to the bottom, unless you make such a bad cast you completely ignore what the fly & sink tip are doing while you attempt to untangle your mess of slack line laying on the water. BTDT lesson learned.

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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 02:09 AM
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There may be tackle issues that are making it harder to cast than it needs to be, but there is no fundamental reason that rig won't turn over, so strictly speaking this is a technique issue. Generally speaking -- the longer and heavier the stuff at the end is, the harder it is to get enough energy out there to turn it over. You have a relatively light, quite short tip, and a quite short leader. If anything, the problem that is more likely to occur is *too fast* a turnover of the rig and too much energy going into the fly, leading to clunky,over-powered premature turnover.

Having said that, there may be tackle issues that are making it harder to cast than it needs to be, and there is a wildcard in the fly. You say a streamer. Well, be more specific. Streamer covers a lot of ground. A 12" lead-eyed muskie fly, or a whispy little Grey Ghost ? Get rid of the big junk for starters.

Technique issues are hard to debug over the internet and pretty much impossible without more details. Here are some things you can try.

First, to figure out if it's something related to the fly, cut it off and replace with a piece of yarn. If the behavior doesn't change, go to next step. If the problem gets better or goes away, probably you're introducing slack into your leader and/or tip before the forward cast. Look at your anchor position right before going into the forward cast. Suspect a bloody-L. If the problem gets worse, probably you're blowing your anchor. First, try slowing down and using less power. Keep everything smooth. And read JDJones post. Lengthening the rig, either going to a poly, a longer tip, or a longer leader, can help hide this problem, but fundamentally you need to learn to control your timing and power to not blow the anchor. On the other side of anchor problems.....listen to your anchor. Do you have a nice crisp release,or, a big slurp from sticking too much line on the water ? Big slurp = dead line = no turnover. (less likely with a short rig but possible if you drop your tip in back).

If your anchors are fine, you now need to figure out the next most likely problem. Start by checking alignment. Go cast on still water. Are your casts landing straight, tracking in a path in line from the D-loop to target, or, is there horizontal movement relative to the 180 plane ? Or worse, curves? Poor tracking will not help turnover.

If none of the above apply, you're likely introducing slack somewhere in the cast. There are so many possible places. You have to go through the cast step by step to find all the places. Very common : take video to see if you are creeping, leading to premature unloading of the rod, possibly in turn encouraging excessive early power application. Also common and often overlooked : slack in the lift that never goes away.

You also did not say at what distance this is occurring. How much, if any, line are you trying to shoot? At some point, the problem for any caster becomes turnover. Start short, no shooting line, and work up. If the issue is really you can't turnover past a certain distance, this is where the refinements of tighter loops, higher line speeds, and particularly as has already been mentioned, removing the dreaded top-hand thrust, start to come into play.
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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 02:50 AM
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I think your leader is too short for a clean presentation, but if your technique was on, it would be turning over too hard, not failing to turn over. I'd make the tip 10 ft, either a poly (cleaner, more elegant), or the t8 should work too (about the same weight as a poly. Make sure your fly is not too heavy for the rig, and then practice your cast- slow down, more bottom hand. A big soft loop that doesn't turn over is usually a dominant top hand.
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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 09:43 AM
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Would also agree with what many have already said about the polyleaders. While many people claim to have success throwing rather large/heavy tips with the Rage, I never found that to be the case with me. Once I went to using that line with polyleaders exclusively, it kind of all came together.
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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 11:30 AM
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Allow me to add one more little piece of advice. Decide whether you want to learn Scandi or Skagit style. Each style has it's advantages & disadvantages, as they were each designed to do different things. Learn one & learn it well before going to the other. There are many "experts" of each style. Pick one, buy their DVD, & study it religiously.

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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 12:36 PM
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With me, the problem was the opposite, the line tip and the leader turned with too much strength, sometimes even getting a kick!

Slowed the final acceleration in the forward cast, unless facing a strong wind, and things seem to have improved.

Bought the line (a kit with 3 tips) because I was told that against a strong wind it is the best line around, providing a good turnover, which to my experience seems to be the case.

I was also told this a line to fish the upper layers, and not one to go down deep ...
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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 03:52 PM
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Aim for the tops of the trees on release.
Pull your bottom hand into your belly-button = more power, high-stop...
Keep the elbow of your upper hand arm, into your waist. Imagine you are gripping an iPhone under your armpit.
Never have more line out of the reel than you can cast.

These points will help stop the rod tip up, your hands in the same plane and give you more power.

Perfect turn-over on a short cast will catch you many many more fish than dumping a long cast. Donít do the latter. Accept your range and concentrate on perfect presentation/your technique. Range will naturally follow.

Tight lines.
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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 05:55 PM
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Bare in mind, Rage lines are designed for beating wind.The fact that some get used for casting heavy tips is not really their primary purpose and its only fair to expect things to be a little less than perfect.
I've one or two Rage lines ! and they all get used with at least a 10ft poly and 6ft of cast material.I've not had any problems whatsoever ever at all turning over copper tubes with this set up.Now, a Rage will cast better still with a 15ft poly and the same 6ft length of cast material.Once you get the front end effectively anchored in your D loop, you won't need loads of "oomph" to get the line to work, just a steady up n out forward stroke and the line will go for absolute miles.You can use either polys or equal lengths of tapered leader to gain the same casting results.
I'd respectfully suggest if you want to heave lengths of T stuff about, go for a Skagit and do the job just right!.
You will however be able to cast and turn over tips of the Versitip(multi tip) persuasion, especially those of 10ft or 12ft quite easily-you will want to factor in the weight of the tip however along with the Rage itself to your rods grain weight casting capabilities.The Hardy 12ft tips from the Rocket heads are particularly suitable and do an amazing job.They're available in two sizes which should suit switch rod and conventional double hander requirements(both sizes are available in full sets which with a bit of thought and a purchase of the correct Rage is a handy outfit!).
Yes you can make do and mend with T tips, but its not the lines primary forte, stick to what its good at and it will deliver in spades.
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Last edited by YORKIE; 09-21-2019 at 05:21 AM.
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