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Beginner Learning Curve

9K views 33 replies 24 participants last post by  Fishead 
#1 ·
Hey Spey Casters - I'd like some advice on shortening the learning curve on spey casting. I'm an avid, experienced single hand trout fisher who just got a new Sage Trout Spey HD 4wt with matching reel. Added an AirFlo 330 gr skagit head and Rio .026 running line for the set up. Also got a Rio 325 gr Scandi line. So my set up is solid.

I've watched and watched terrific spey casting instructional videos by Ashland Fly Shop a hundred times. So far I've only hit the water twice to work on my cast, using a GoPro Hero 7 Black to record myself and come back and watch my form. Wow this is a lot more challenging than and single hand cast.

At this stage I'm simply working on anchor point and forward stroke in a roll cast / single spey to get a feel for loading the rod and forming a tight loop. Still don't have the feel for the cast yet.

For you experienced guys - am I on the right path for picking up this new challenge? Or would hiring a casting instructor be money well spent to shorten the learning curve?
 
#2 ·
Time on the water with good instructor will shorten the learning curve faster than anything else. That being said, one of the lines you have will most likely prove too light or two heavy. Can't say which one, but Skagit heads usually tend to be much heavier than Scandi heads, & that doesn't include the weight of the sink tip on the Skagit head!
The sustained anchor casts are easier to learn as they are more of a two part cast, allowing for a little time between the anchor set and the actual cast itself. I have heard it said that when Simon Gawsworth was a young lad learning to cast the two hand rod, his father insisted he do nothing but the double spey cast for one year before moving on to the single spey cast.
 
#3 ·
The sustained anchor casts are easier to learn as they are more of a two part cast, allowing for a little time between the anchor set and the actual cast itself.
"little" is the operative word here.

The "allowing for a little time" when using intermediate lines and sink tips is limiting here, as your tip and sinking portion of your intermediate line will sink, reducing your ability to pull it from beneath the surface when you form your D loop, and begin your forward cast. Floating lines allow you a "little more" time.

just my 2£ worth....:wink2:
 
#4 ·
JD that is some Mr Miyagi style training for Simon!

To the OP - you were very meticulous about describing everything else but I’m just curious as to what you had on the end of that skagit head. You must use a tip for it to work as intended, and it may be easier to learn initially using 10’ of something that sinks, but not too much. So on that head something like 10’ t3 or t6 or a 3ips #5, 6 or possibly 7 rio replacement tip. If you are going to learn on a skagit head then the extra anchor stick you get may help you learn initially.

You may find that scandi head a bit too heavy for that rod but such judgments probably should wait until you can feel the difference.
 
#5 ·
I heard some good advice given recently. Since your a point 0, as a long time single hand caster you will likely use too much top hand. You will need to remember to restrain a bit and use more bottom hand. Now on to the advice, it was suggested as a possibility to learn with your opposite hand. Since the left? hand has no muscle memory and starting from zero there will be no habit to break or motion to relearn. Just a suggestion.

Dan
 
#6 ·
Some really good advice from some really knowledgable people here. Some one may even be able to recommend a good teacher in your area. I'm also an experienced SH'er, but am TH'er video/self-taught due to my location. To my knowledge there was/is no one within 100's of miles of me to learn from. It took me months until I got over the initial hump and felt I had a decent handle on things. The whole time I wished I had a mentor. When I started I wasn't even able to determine if my setup was well matched... it wasn't. If you think you might need professional help, get some. But, look for one that will teach you on the line system that best suits your fishing (either skagit, or scandi). That'll at least get you fishing with a reasonable amount of confidence, and may save you alot of time, money, and trouble in the long run. Good luck!
 
#7 · (Edited)
Bob "Bud" Budesa knows me well. We have fished together numerous times, each leading & following. We each cast a little differently. We have each found what works for us, not only in casting style, & rigging, but rods as well.

I started out learning traditional style on extremely long belly lines & got to where I was able to pick up & cast 100 ft of line (off the reel) plus 15 ft leader. When I got into Skagit style, it was almost like starting from scratch. Especially that Constant Motion, Constant Load thing. Most fly fishers in my area nymph for steelhead, even the two hand guys. No one around here did Skagit style back then. Now there is Skagit style, & then there is what some refer to as "Edgit" style. I figured I may as well learn from the guy that figured it all out in the beginning, Ed Ward. So I bought the Skagit Master I DVD.

Ed got a lot of flack from everyone when he first started talking about his style of casting, even from fellow two hand guys on the Skagit river. And there are different opinions on the style to this day.

If you're like most, you learned fly fishing, & casting, on single hand rods. Life was simple. you bought X weight rod and X weight floating line to go with it, along with rod length tapered leader, some tippet material & that was that. Sink tips were seldom even mentioned. Some places you would be castigated for fishing anything but a dry fly, heaven forbid a sink tip.

Welcome to the world of Spey fishing. :chuckle: Each of these (Skagit & Scandi) styles have their followers, Jedi's, advantages, & disadvantages. The same can be said of rod actions. What suits one person to tee, won't work at all for the next guy. Is one better than the other? No, just different strokes for different folks. Pick a style, find a Jedi you can relate to/get along with, and forget the other style until you have the first one down.

P.S. When I fish a Skagit setup it is to be able to fish big, heavily weighted flies and not have to work my a$$ of casting them. For the waters & flies I fish, that equates to three to twelve feet of T-14. If not, I swap to what has been referred to as a Scandit, head & a conventional sink tip. In that respect the same rule that applies to any fly rod also applies to two hand rods. Choose the fly, choose a line capable of casting that fly, choose a rod capable of casting that line, in that order.
 
#8 ·
Wow this is a lot more challenging than and single hand cast.

At this stage I'm simply working on anchor point and forward stroke in a roll cast / single spey to get a feel for loading the rod and forming a tight loop. Still don't have the feel for the cast yet.
Perhaps you cast Tailing Loops? A 4wt rod and 325gr line should "load" easy and rod might bend too much too soon which is first cause to TL which your thinking "loading" might amplify.

On another post you wrote that you can double haul good when single hand casting and when haul timing is right it is done very late and it delays rod straightening. With TH rod if your timing and bottom hand use are not yet right the rod might begin to straighten too early and if it does it is second method to TL. I know TL because I have had to fix it many times :(

When learning without a certified casting instructor there is possibility to build Creep to your casting so if you don't yet understand it you should study it so you can avoid it. Same context should explain Drifting which you should study as well.

You could (lawn) practice continuous overhead and oval casting with Scandi head to improve power usage to get line loop good. Long at least rod length mono leader makes Spey casting easier but when overhead casting practice use shorter about 7...9ft leader and just small fluff to mimic fly

Oval casting is good Switch Cast practice because back cast sweep, rod positioning (avoiding Creep) when back cast line loop straightens and forward casting stroke are almost the same, just the timing is not same but when back cast is done slower and when on water the leader anchors to water.

If you have enough room and wind is not strong you can change oval casting to single spey casting thrill turning casting direction and if your head does get dizzy you should be able to turn whore rotation doing eight cycles but first turn direction less so that form stays good.

Esa
 
#10 ·
I don't know if there are instructors available in your area, but Michael McClellan of McClellan's fly shop in Fayetteville is a steelheading machine. He may be able to share some help or point you at some. A lesson or ten may well be there best investment you make, even if you have to do a destination trip to get it.

If you can't get instruction, videotape yourself and compare it to good casting videos. Long experience sh casting is usually only a hindrance, as it's very difficult to get your top hand to give up control to your bottom.

And as I read on these pages so many times over the years I was getting started, slow down, more bottom hand.
 
#11 ·
Yep. That darn top hand. Conquering the top hand was the worst part. Lots of sore shoulders and elbows. Too much top hand will keep you from tightening up those loops. Steer the rod with the bottom hand. Grip loosely with the top hand allowing the rod to pivot using it only as a fulcrum. Do yourself a favor and "pin" your top hand elbow to your ribs. Keep both hands in front of your body. It will be tough at first, but pay attention to it and persevere. The aha moment will happen. Check out Goran Andersson and Klaus Frimor videos. When I stumbled upon their videos and started to try and imitate them is when the l had my aha moment.
 
#12 · (Edited)
OP: Learning to cast with a 4 wt. trout spey rod might be a little tougher than using a slightly longer and heavier spey rod but do not let that reflection deter you.

As a single hand caster, were you able to control casting planes and reduce your loops to tiny pointed wedges? Were you able to deliver on target with mini-hauls while keeping your single hand rod 'in the box', i.e., tight to your body? If so, there are many parallels that will reveal themselves between single and 2-hand casting as you figure out how to 2-hand cast efficiently with minimal effort.

If not, then be a little more patient with yourself.

1. Practice with a piece of wool or yarn with no hook on either a slow-moving flow or stillwater. Practice casting from a beach or dock on a pond or small lake is an excellent way to learn. Wading is not necessary to practice cast and should be avoided most of the time.

2. Practice often with many short sessions.

3. Try a heavier floating head. If you cannot "feel" the cast, start out with a heavier head, maybe 360 grains, perhaps more. That little Sage should have some power in the lower rod. Most 2-hand rods can easily cast a wide range of grain weights.

4. Do not hesitate to focus on a specific part of the cast and then let the rest of the cast collapse.

5. Learn to visually monitor your D-loop formation as it forms behind you.

6. Borrow a page from the Scandi casters and try stopping your forward cast by jamming the lower hand/rod butt into your stomach. That approach might help you to learn how to use the lower hand.

7. Resist the temptation to macho-hero distance cast. Want to impress yourself and a few of us old-timers? Focus on making effortless, short casts.

8. Get a friend to video your practice casting, ideally in good light conditions so you can actually see the line. A decent smartphone should be sufficient.

9. Go to a local or regional Spey Clave. Watch, listen, ask questions, ask for brief one-on-ones, try different rods and lines.

10. If feasible, find a fly shop in your area that has a bunch of competent 2-hand casters on staff. Make all your purchases there. Ask dumb questions. Take up some of their time but not too much.

Above all, be prepared to invest for the long haul. Took me years to dial in despite benefiting from numerous informal lessons from a few top-notch, excellent casters. Humility and patience are valuable assets.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Some good advice so far, yet when I started a few years ago I wish that I would have seen the demonstration : 'Klaus Frimors crash course on Scandi Casting' on You Tube, which links the casting styles of simple yet effective single handed and double handed casting, using a more descreet and less splashy technique.

I became caught up in the multiple styles and acrobatics casting various lines and see now that a simpler style would have been a better and less confusing introduction. My waters are not brawny west coast rivers but the mostly smaller and shallower Great Lakes tributaries.

Only lately I have come to appreciate more the 'angling' of double handed rods rather than just the casting of them, an aspect somewhat side-lined when starting out.

The more subtle approach of European double handed (Scandi) described by Klaus Frimors now appeals to me as I prefer to use smaller flies, the Scandi lines also suit the more self loading bamboo rods that I like, rather well.

Malcolm
 
#15 ·
I'll triple the advice given, I'm new to the Spey game, thought I was doing ok till a veteran watched me, sure I was getting it out there and fishing, but wasn't doing it remotely proper.
When I u derstand more of the science of the cast, it all came together, remember, u r casting the d- loop, not the fly.
I actually looked behind me and watched the d- loop form, then proceeded with the forward stroke, and whamo, 60-70-80 feet no problem.
Get an instructor or someone with knowledge , this WILL make all the difference in the world.
Good luck, let us know how u make out
 
#16 ·
Random thoughts

Charlie Waterman R.I.P. used to start single hand wannabe fly caster's on a 3 wt rod loaded up with a WF10F line. Charlie did this so his students could get the feel of that heavy line loading the rod. And they didn't need to pick up & cast the whole 30 ft head to load that little 3 wt rod deep into butt section, which also slowed the action to where the novice had a wee bit more time to think about what they had to do & when to do it. :hihi: Rather extreme, but you get the point.

Casting short heads is a lot different than tournament casting long belly lines. That short head comes around a lot quicker than say a 90 ft head on a tournament line. The whole stroke is not only quicker, it is much more compact, lacking all that arm movement. A Scandi head can in fact be cast with hardly any arm movement at all, simply by shifting body weight.

Used heads can be had for peanuts compared to what you would have to pay for another rod, or two, or more. And like said, most graphite rods today have a pretty wide grain window. Plus, we're not talking about bombing out power casts of record proportions. We're talking about getting a feel for the cast, the timing of the stroke, & determining the best grain weight for the rod. Pass along the savings to others & recoup some of your cost when done.

I have observed newbie two hand caster's on the river casting with such a distinct pause (& I am reluctant to use that terminology) between the back cast & the forward cast that the rod completely unloads, allowing gravity to do it's thing. A few feet of the D-loop falls to the water, resulting in excessive line stick & the cast fails. To overcome this on the following cast, they will invariably whack the hell out of (shock) the rod. The rod tip collapses, resulting in a tailing loop, or worse.

Slow down the stroke rather than the pause. Start the power stroke slowly, building speed (rod load), stop fast, & follow thru. Do not throw the rod at the fish. Do not aim for the tree tops. The wind is in the tree tops, the fish are in water. Relax that "death grip" on the rod. It a fly rod, not a Claymore sword. One finger & thumb, on each hand will suffice. Now, taking into account different strokes for different folks, my own preference for short head casting, is to utilize the top hand to guide the rod & the bottom hand for power.

YMMV
 
#17 ·
I found a teacher right out of the gate and that put me years ahead of doing it myself, I also learned Skagit, Scandinavian and spey casting and the differences in lines and style. While I fish skagit heads a lot my favorite is Scandinavian. I also fish with guys that are way more experienced than me at this which really helped out fishing, how to approach things.

My friends I met when starting this four years ago are still my friends today and we fish and meet at spey claves. I will say if you want to get good get involved. Lots of great advice here on the forum too.
 
#18 ·
You’ve heard a lot of good advice here. I’d become the sponge you’re trying to be - soaking up every piece of information you can find.

Two key points that I’ll add to your “need to know” information.

For sustained anchor casting, after the flop, as you begin your sweep....your first move is OUT and then AROUND. Most people, myself included, didn’t not pay as much attention to the OUT word. That little tip added about 20-30’ to my cast on bigger water where, in a very rare instance, distance mattered. You’re going to make some amazing mistakes over the next few months. I would strongly urge you to consider fishing “barbless”. :)

Perhaps the most important thing to remember is to keep your eye on the ball.....or the anchor spot. When it pivots and aligns up with your intended direction you want to cast, you can begin your forward delivery. KEY POINT HERE - If at anytime your fly lands in front of you.....as your nose is pointed in the direction that you’re going to cast - that is a NO-GO zone. ABORT ABORT ABORT. :) If you send it....and you probably will....you’re going to risk adding a new piercing “under the chin” or somewhere even worse. The same goes for the fly landing too far behind you when you’re making downstream Perry pokes. You want that fly, more often than not, a rod lengths away at a 45 degree angle from your body.

I second the suggestion that you need to find an instructor earlier than later. Here’s why. PRIMACY. It’s the law of learning that states what is learned first is usually learned best. If you learn it wrong, first, you’ll spend months unlearning it. You’ll frequently stress revert to it and when tired, you’ll falter into that as well. You, like most of us, already have too much muscle memory with your normal casting hand....which is probably going to be your upper hand. You’ll be pushing that thing out there for a while...unless you have someone constantly correcting you or giving you the tips you need to prevent it. I’ve dedicated myself to fishing almost 90% two-handed rods for the past couple of years. It’s helped tremendously. You won’t lose your single handed skills...don’t worry. THAT is PRIMACY.

Most importantly - have fun. Welcome to the two-handed world. I regret to inform you, there isn’t a 12-step program to save you from all things spey. :)
 
#20 · (Edited)
You might be better off doing a google search, especially on videos. In brief a poke cast is a spey cast where the anchor is placed (re-placed may be a better way to describe it) by “dumping” the line instead of casting it. For example you could start any spey cast you like and instead of getting a nice anchor placement you could just do the steps (perhaps even sloppily) and then instead of casting on the forward stroke just lower (dump) your head without shooting any line. The resulting anchor form depends on many factors including how long the head is, why you are doing a poke, and where you are placing the anchor, but the resulting anchor after the poke may be a smooth loop, or just resemble a sinking “ knitting pile” all bunched up in one place. That is absolutely fine as either way, the idea is that when you subsequently sweep the rod back again the water tension on the line together with the dynamics of throwing the D loop back will load the rod, all while straightening the anchor in the water. Think of it as a different way to arrive at the key position before the power stroke.

My understanding has always been, though it might be just me, that the “Perry” poke usually refers to doing a poke out of a single spey, but you can do a poke out of any spey cast, and there are even a few ways to do the dump that don’t exactly resemble any regular spey cast. There are even pokes like doing a dump out straight after a snake roll to set up and overhead cast with a change of direction - this can also be done without landing the line on the water at all, in which case it is arguably not a poke at all. Still it has some features of a poke. Lots and lots of variations are possible, going way beyond poking out of a single spey.

Some people genuinely like doing a poke as an alternative to a regular spey cast, and find it easier to get a nice 180 layout and a consistent forward cast than a “standard” spey cast. Sometimes they like to substitute them for that one cast they haven’t got the hang of yet.

You can do a poke after/during a messed up cast - when you realize your cast is going to suck just dump the line instead of casting it, then follow up with a beautiful poke. Make sure everyone knows you “meant” to do it that way all along. :)

When you have little or no room behind you can poke/dump the anchor way out in front of you in such a way as to make a D-loop that also ends further out, thus avoiding the obstacles behind. In this case you are constructing a useful cast that is difficult or impossible to do just by blindly trying to execute a “regular” spey cast in that situation.

There are many ways to do the dump, and there are many spey casters that make it look highly artful and amazing. You can of course even poke out of a poke (re-poke?) repeatedly until you get the anchor where you need it. It ain’t pretty in that case but when you are desperate you will not mind.

There are probably too many poke cast solutions to fishing problems to discuss in one place, but those are the bare bones basics.
 
#21 ·
jkdurden...great tips. Especially using barbless hooks! I am a newbie also. I had a great lesson with experienced spey casters who would not let me use a fly during the lesson. Part way through the lesson the cloth fly we were using hit me right in the lower lip while trying to salvage a bad cast. So I learned, when I see that fly sitting right in front of me...ABORT. I will be smashing the barbs down on my flies until I'm a better caster too. Thanks for the reminder.
 
#22 ·
As a beginner to spey this year I'll share my experiences on what got me going.

Buy the DVD by Tom Larimer on how to Skagit cast. He breaks down everything very well and tells you what to do "if this happens." As an example if your anchor ends up here, this is why. It's very good, definitely worth $25. I'm not qualified to break down the casting process or what would help you. As a lot of people said, a qualified instructor is always best; for learning anything for that matter. I should probably do a couple lessons myself, but my time is limited. I think the DVD can get you going.

I have a very similar setup; except I bought the 4wt GLoomis short spey; 330 grain scout head. The guys at Gorge Fly shop told me to start with a sink tip ( I used a T8 ), but a light fly. You get the anchor set with the sink tip, but the light weight fly is easier to get out of the water.

After you get the stroke down somewhat and make fishable casts, tell yourself to just chill. Loosen the grip a little and be smooth with the cast. Good luck man!
 
#23 ·
Don't worry about having to shorten the learning curve. If thats your first concern then you are starting out under a bad sign. Hire an instructor and relax. Have somebody walk you through all of the nuts and bolts of the gear and the process and you will feel it start to happen. Using a GoPro is not going to help as you will not be able to track the mistakes as they are happening, only having another person with you will help correct and coach in real time. Just my two cents.
 
#24 ·
DVDs are the next best thing to real time instruction. And you can't have too many of them. Take notes of points made by the different Jedi's & compare, looking for similarities. Two to one they all stress the importance of anchor placement as #1 priority. It would be nice to be able to play them stream side, go cast, come back for a re- run, repeat, repeat, repeat.
 
#26 ·
You already have so much excellent advice that it will keep you occupied for quite a while. If I were to start now, waterbourne anchors first (poke, snap-t, double spey), then on to switch casts and stay there for a couple of years.

Regarding the use of top hand, unfortunately or fortunately - depending on your viewpoint - there are so many ways to do it well. Keeping your elbow tight to your ribs is one as we have seen in some first-class videos. However, moving the top hand is not a problem as such. In fact, for some of us, even with short lines, smooth movement of the top hand makes our casting much more relaxed and controlled. Both in the sweep and the forward stroke. Just saying. I stand firmly in the "lead before speed" camp. I get my best stroke when mostly a positional change is followed by mostly an angular change. Translation followed by rotation, that thing. Top hand is very useful for translating and helps in rotating.

I recently heard of a single-handed casting instructor whose first task with a new student is to suggest a style for them by exploring their range of motion and muscle strength in different movements. I wonder if anyone has done the same with long rods. We should at least try.
 
#27 ·
That's an interesting idea Smooth, but shouldn't the rod and line choice match the fly, target fish, and fishing conditions first? It's up to the user to learn any applicable techniques right? IMO the line should be considered a proper match for the rod when proper technique is used to cast it... This way the beginner will immediately be able to see and/or feel the results of their input... bad technique = bad cast and vice versa. They will know when to seek help to fix a problem they're having. So pick a scandi or skagit head that's not ultra short or ultra long and smack dab in the middle of the respective scandi or skagit grain window for that rod. Anything other than this may lead to bad habits, and more time/money unnecessarily spent (this is what I did to myself when I first started). After some time on the water and the beginner shows some proficiency, maybe experiment by bumping up or down a size with the same line make and model to see if one particular weight suits the now semi-skilled caster's developing style better, and thereby increasing performance. You gotta learn to walk before you can run right?
 
#28 ·
That's an interesting idea Smooth, but shouldn't the rod and line choice match the fly, target fish, and fishing conditions first?
Fortunately correct gear and correct technique are not mutually exclusive.

I get your point of walking before running, and exploring can be the best thing. Then again, the easiest way to unlearn (accidentally discovered) bad habits is not to learn them in the first place. It is a tricky trade off. And makes this interesting.
 
#30 ·
The object of fishing the spey rod is, of course, is to become a better person through suffering.>:) If you want to slay steelhead, run a diver and **** shrimp.

I think there's two related tasks, one of which is to make a fishable cast so you can catch a fish. The other is to learn to cast so gracefully and artfully that you feel good about your hard-won mastery. They do go together well but can be achieved separately.

A 4wt short stick with a light line may not be the best outfit to learn on, (short fast sticks often require better timing), but what the hell. I learned on a 12'6" for six rod and a DT. Follow the basics, practice, and you will eventually hit some good casts.
You might even catch a fish, in which case you are irrevocably doomed.

All the videos and online advice here only help so much. Find a good caster- who's able to explain things in a way you understand- and fish with him or her or shim or zim. Pronouns don't matter, the shape of your loop does.
A person who knows what they're doing will help you most by allowing you to see and immediately model their casts for your most effective learning. They may even give you a tidbit of knowledge or two along the way.

I don't know of anything besides dedicated study and water time that shortens the learning curve.
Good luck on your journey!
Bob
 
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