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post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-26-2019, 08:01 PM
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To be clear, casting off the down-wind shoulder is how you deal with wind, and both casting cack handed and casting with that side hand up does that just fine. Casting off the down-wind shoulder becomes virtually mandatory if the wind is blowing hard enough - there is no alternative and you MUST be able to do it if you want to fish. But how you do it, “regular” or cack handed is a different question.

It’s cool he made you start that way! Might be better if all instructors did that, and only suggest cack handed if the students had trouble. But probably they know many people find it difficult at first and don’t want to waste too much time getting people started. I like to tell people that the “weirdness” they feel when they first try to cast left handed is the same weirdness they felt when they first learned to cast since none of the muscle memory you have developed is at all applicable. So you have to start from scratch on that side, but it is just as doable. But many people DO seem to have the feeling that it is harder even than that. I don’t know where the full truth lies, but as for me I find I can learn things on both sides. It helps to try to keep in mind what it felt like the first time you picked up a rod - THAT is the right comparison, NOT what it feels like in comparison to your already developed dominant side.

The single-spey is just the alternative and if you could do single spey casts equally well with either hand-up ( as opposed to both hands up...) then there is no real need to cast cack-handed across the body that way.
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post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-26-2019, 09:08 PM
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The single-spey is just the alternative and if you could do single spey casts equally well with either hand-up ( as opposed to both hands up...) then there is no real need to cast cack-handed across the body that way.
I think it depends on the circumstance as well Vic.
I'm faced with the obstacle of a deep river and high bank. Wading out more than 6 feet from the bank puts me into heavy currents, water around my waist (I'm 6'5"). The banks can be high and often over hanging trees and bushes are the norm, making anything leading past my position considered "caught in the trees" and a futile act. This, coupled with a need for shoulder surgery on my left side, turns me into the "cack-handed master". Three casts with left hand up sends me to the bank ... so I no longer go there. Pitty, my left hand casting is just as good, (if not better) as my right side. I was enjoying the switch-up between hands prior to this old injury rearing it's ugly head ... alas, the sands of time show the true state of the flesh

I've become fluent with a cack-handed Single and a fancy Snap-T/Perry-Poke/Single basterdized ala "cack" cast


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post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-27-2019, 12:03 AM
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.
I've become fluent with a cack-handed Single and a fancy Snap-T/Perry-Poke/Single basterdized ala "cack" cast
I’m sympathetic with people that have injuries, especially as depending on the injury avoiding cack handed may be the SOLUTION for some physical issues, as avoiding left handed up is in others. I do cack handed casts too, when they are the solution to a particular problem. I just prioritize non-cack handed for what I feel is a reason that applies to me and my perceptions about it. And I would have no problem if there is someone that comes to exactly the opposite conclusion based on the same information. I’m just saying the “I can’t because it feels weird and it is impossible for me cast the other way” reason is a shaky one, no pun intended. It’s based on a misunderstanding of what the issue is. If you attack the problem rationally, slowly, and with a little forethought and patience with yourself there is no reason why most people without some kind of physical issue can’t add those casts to their repertoire without hurting themselves. Sometimes there are new muscles to activate and DEVELOP, not just train to do the right thing, so going slow at first is a good idea. A lot of people will feel there is no need to make the effort, which is perfectly fine as well.
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Last edited by Botsari; 07-27-2019 at 12:27 AM.
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post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-27-2019, 06:30 AM
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I’m sympathetic with people that have injuries, especially as depending on the injury avoiding cack handed may be the SOLUTION for some physical issues, as avoiding left handed up is in others. I do cack handed casts too, when they are the solution to a particular problem. I just prioritize non-cack handed for what I feel is a reason that applies to me and my perceptions about it. And I would have no problem if there is someone that comes to exactly the opposite conclusion based on the same information. I’m just saying the “I can’t because it feels weird and it is impossible for me cast the other way” reason is a shaky one, no pun intended. It’s based on a misunderstanding of what the issue is. If you attack the problem rationally, slowly, and with a little forethought and patience with yourself there is no reason why most people without some kind of physical issue can’t add those casts to their repertoire without hurting themselves. Sometimes there are new muscles to activate and DEVELOP, not just train to do the right thing, so going slow at first is a good idea. A lot of people will feel there is no need to make the effort, which is perfectly fine as well.

The "it feels awkward" conclusion shouldn't stop a caster from learning the motions. Everything feels awkward at first. Trying and practicing is the only way to gain that muscle memory.
I was the same at first, it felt awkward. But I wanted to learn and have full range on any river - it worked !! It didn't matter which way I was fishing a river or which way the wind was blowing, I was able to execute a cast and deliver my goods. I encourage everyone to learn and become fluent with either hand dominant.
Once this "shoulder thing" of mine is behind me, I will try to regain that left hand memory.


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post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-27-2019, 08:53 AM Thread Starter
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Mike...this is my plan...thanks ...I will be down at the local pond becoming fluent with right hand up casting and practicing managing my running line with what ever way works best...as long as it shoots unimpaired.
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post #21 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-27-2019, 09:40 AM
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I've tried both upper hand and lower hand to hold the running line loops ... my preference, regardless of which upper hand I use is always the bottom hand. I find the running line stays out of the way more.
I've found to start with a long loop and progressively get shorter. The other way for sinking running lines. First long loop is held by my little finger, next loop is the ring finger, next is the middle and so on.

Keep it all slow and steady, no rushing. Let the rod do the work, just concentrate on your motions. Know where your target is, where your hands are and show your top hand how high your ear is and introduce your bottom hand to your chest

Have fun


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post #22 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-27-2019, 11:26 AM
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——“show your top hand how high you ear is”——love it!
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post #23 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-27-2019, 01:32 PM
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I’m sympathetic with people that have injuries, especially as depending on the injury avoiding cack handed may be the SOLUTION for some physical issues, as avoiding left handed up is in others. I do cack handed casts too, when they are the solution to a particular problem. I just prioritize non-cack handed for what I feel is a reason that applies to me and my perceptions about it. And I would have no problem if there is someone that comes to exactly the opposite conclusion based on the same information. I’m just saying the “I can’t because it feels weird and it is impossible for me cast the other way” reason is a shaky one, no pun intended. It’s based on a misunderstanding of what the issue is. If you attack the problem rationally, slowly, and with a little forethought and patience with yourself there is no reason why most people without some kind of physical issue can’t add those casts to their repertoire without hurting themselves. Sometimes there are new muscles to activate and DEVELOP, not just train to do the right thing, so going slow at first is a good idea. A lot of people will feel there is no need to make the effort, which is perfectly fine as well.
That is pretty awesome - that you are ambidextrous that way and able to cast from either side equally well on the flip. That is the point to my responds in favor of - but mainly that it has simplified things for me.

Those are two different situations/reasons though that you point out , and guess I just haven't encountered a reason to cast across the body since learning to cast just the single-spey with either hand up. Hardly a need for the double-spey since also.
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post #24 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-27-2019, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by fish0n4evr View Post
That is pretty awesome - that you are ambidextrous that way and able to cast from either side equally well on the flip. That is the point to my responds in favor of - but mainly that it has simplified things for me.

Those are two different situations/reasons though that you point out , and guess I just haven't encountered a reason to cast across the body since learning to cast just the single-spey with either hand up. Hardly a need for the double-spey since also.
I agree - at least for me it has simplified things. Also that I’d rather do a single spey.

Full disclosure I am, like Don, left handed - I write left handed that is. Unlike Don I have always done most “athletic” stuff right handed for some reason, including the first time I picked up a fly rod. Over time I have come to realize that I switch hands unconsciously to do different types of tasks, and usually it comes down to finesse stuff with my left hand and strength stuff with my right...approximately. If I was painting a house I’d use my right hand, but painting a model would definitely be the left. But I’m definitely not ambidextrous, at least as I understand that word, and have as much trouble as (I imagine) the next guy has doing something with the off hand for the first time. Maybe because I switch up it may give me more initial confidence that it will only be a matter of time before it feels natural doing it via the off hand.

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post #25 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 02:34 AM
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One thing I don't recall seeing much discussion of in the cackhanded debates that come up from time to time --


I am a strong believer that effective casting results from casting efficiency, and efficiency is to a great degree a function of good ergonomics. Well, a cackhanded cast has very different body position, thus, different ergonomics to manage. So, if you want to cast cack- instead of switch- handed, you are basically doubling the numbers of casts you must learn. That's even if you believe effective ergonomics are possible for cackhanded casts,which, for touch and go casts, I question is possible. Switching hands, it may seem awkward at first, but the casts off either shoulder should be mirror images of the other. Establish correct form on one side, you can focus on mirroring it.

I admit this is probably not as big a consideration with really short (skagit heads) cast sustained anchor. And, in the case of injury, well you do what you gotta do to manage.



One weird thing -- I've noticed that since starting speycasting, my ability to use my weak (left, in my case) hand in everyday situations has improved quite a bit. Something is going on in terms of training/conditioning/re-wiring brain pathways.
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post #26 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 08:35 AM
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One of my goals for the next year is to learn to cast with my left hand up. But, I also know casting "...cackhanded" can be helpful is correcting faults caused by over-rotation of the wrist and forearm when casting normally.

Gene
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post #27 of 31 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 01:56 PM
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There is a interesting story, possibly apocryphal, about Simon Gawesworth that when he decided to learn to switch up he went cold turkey and forced himself for two years to only cast left handed for everything. I don’t know if this is actually true, but I have heard that from multiple sources including people who knew him. But that is a Mr. Miyagi methodology for learning for sure! Also a dash of the dread pirate Roberts in there.

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post #28 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 05:57 PM
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Im a leftie but I cast single and two hand right hand. Play hockey right hand, shoot right hand. Im almost 75% there on casting leftie. It takes work to learn to be proficient casting both ways. I find if I switch it up at the last second, set my anchor and go without thinking my left handed casts are pretty good. When Im trying to work on it and paying attention to every detail my casts fall apart more often. Same with left hand cackhanded casts. Heat of the moment? Wonderful. Paying attention to every move? Not so much. I think if you are very proficient either way you can get the job done cleanly and efficiently in enough situations to not worry too much abut being ambidextrous.
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post #29 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-05-2019, 09:13 AM
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To me, spey fishing is definitely a two-handed sport. To help me be better at casting with my left hand on top, I use my left hand to do other things, like washing dishes and brushing my teeth.

When I was living in NYC I would often go to a handball court and throw left handed.

Randy
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post #30 of 31 (permalink) Old 08-05-2019, 12:44 PM
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I'm one of those old guys that is left handed throwing a baseball, swinging a golf club but write right handed probably since schools made students write with right hands. I have always cast right handed even as a kid with a spinning rod. Don't think I'm ambidextrous, just muscle memory imprinted. When learning to spey cast I forced myself to spey cast both hands up and glad I did. Another benefit from this is casting single hand spey and overhead left handed became easy where before I didn't pursue it as it was so awkward. Casting single hand rods with either hand can be an advantage just as with 2 handers.
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