Double spey Skagit - video help - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-28-2019, 03:35 AM Thread Starter
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Double spey Skagit - video help

Hi,

I really enjoy to deal with you on this forum that gave me many advice by reading it last months.
Like I said in my presentation, I'm a French (sorry for my English) guy who fly fished since more than 20 years with a one hand rod. I also practice spinning and many thing else. My favorite game is to fish trout and grayling (see my last video this summer in Lapland https://youtu.be/Wpd6Kc_w5dk ), and I have some spot in France with big rivers (100 meters wide, 2m deep and high slope, in the mountain) and very large trout (60 cm is very common, 70 cm also) who are not afraid to attack really big streamer.

So here I am, since 1 month I fish with a double hand rod, a Sage Mod 13ft 7', with a 525 gr Rio floating skagit line and some MOW Tip and big streamers. It s hard in France to find good things about it, and spey pages is a Bible for me. I also looked a lot of video (Ashley fly shop etc...). First of all, do you think that my setup is all right?

My first try was really bad, so I decided to learn step by step, and I chose the double spey to be the first cast I want to learn (for me it seems to be the easiest..). I know that I will need to learn the perry poke and maybe snapeT to be able to fish many situations depending on the direction of the wind and the river.

So, for the double spey cast, I know the basis of the lift, the sweep, the D loop and the forward stroke. But I know that I may have some adjustment to do to be able to cast at good distance (important for my spot), and here you are 🙂


Because I don't have a guide in France to teach me, I decided to film myself last week with a drone, then I could see what's good/wrong in my cast. It s really great to do that because you can see many fault that you can't imagine!

So I want to give you that video of me and I hope that you could tell me about it to improve my cast (this only my third time I fish with my skagit system,... Be cool )

https://youtu.be/0l4cRPRYLe4

I think I understood many things:

-> Positioning the anchor is very important
-> The speed of the swing has to accelerate at the end or the D-Loop will not charge the rod enough. But if the anchor leave the water all of the energy would be lost
-> It s good to take a look at the D loop before the final forward stroke.
->I don't have to get to much power on the forward stroke. I need advice on that step because I m not sure I m OK.

I hope that you could give me some advice to improve everything.

I enjoy to speak with you soon. Don't hesitate to ask me if you need more information.

++++

Ps: I really like the idea of learning skagit.
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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-28-2019, 04:34 AM
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While I didn't watch the whole video I will give some pionters

1st, the overall timing is good, but like most sing handers going to 2 hand is top hand dominated( its very easy to see in the slow motion.

So concentrate on the work being done with the bottom hand, (push and pull with the bottom hand) top hand guides the rod.Try only using 2 fingers with your top hand.

2nd your forward stroke you are pushing your hands forward, your bottom hand should be hitting you in the stomach, top hand elbow touching your ribs on the stop. Try putting a belt around your top hand elbow and around your chest.

3rd slow down on the forward stroke, just like with the single hander its a slow acceleration to the stop. Not a NHRA drag race!

Again timing and anchor set up looks good, on a couple casts the D loop could have used a little more energy, just like with a single the better the back cast the easier the forward stroke

It's looking good and have fun on the journey, if you can find a instructor or a shop that does classes it will greatly increase the learning curve! Also watch the linespeed jedi's videos posted here, he does some great demos on hand position and talks the stroke through and also what he sees and feels during his casts.
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Tight lines! B K Paige
"Occupy Skagit"
Wishin I was fishin the Sauk!!!

Last edited by Rifflehitch; 02-28-2019 at 05:02 AM.
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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-28-2019, 06:57 AM
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Great video!

Tailing Loops kill your forward cast! You use too abrupt beginning of the forward casting stroke! Look how much rod tip dips down!

Too slow casting pace on anchor set and back cast also make fly and line tip sink too much and lots of energy goes to break the anchor free.

You don't cast the D-loop! Start back cast rod tip close the water and sweep rising plane and accelerate sweep. Then short pause when D-loop forms and then smooth accelerating forward stroke.

Skagit line is difficult to Spey cast because the leader is short and line tip is heavy. You need to do initial lift higher to free as much line as possible so that first cast to anchor comes more consistent.

Scandi head is much easier to Spey cast but if you don't want to buy one you can leave the sinking tip away and cast the Skagit belly with 20ft tapered leader. It does not cast smooth but anchors do not waste much energy.

Esa
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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-28-2019, 07:53 AM
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Just watching the first few minutes and would like to point out a couple things.

1-When you bring your rod up stream start with a slow lift and swing upstream and drop your rod low. You should get a 'J' loop off the rod tip. From there start your swing around into the back stroke elevating as you go.

2-Get your bottom hand out and away from you. It should be pushing out as you come up and around into the back stroke as your forming the D-loop. Use it to steer the rod. You can then pull in for your forward stroke.

3-As for your top hand, some folks only use as a fulcrum, I do use some upper hand myself to push forward but more so to set the stop position.

Keep at it! Looking good. Learning is most of the fun.

Dan

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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-28-2019, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidChem View Post
-> The speed of the swing has to accelerate at the end or the D-Loop will not charge the rod enough. But if the anchor leave the water all of the energy would be lost
-> It s good to take a look at the D loop before the final forward stroke.
->I don't have to get to much power on the forward stroke. I need advice on that step because I m not sure I m OK.
Back cast does not load/charge the rod. It is bad myth. Rod bends when there is line loop running and it keeps some line tension. Also when rod is leaned back the gravity bends rod slightly and also when gravity pulls the line between rod tip and line loop down. Addressing importance of rod load can lead to casting fault which often results a tailing loop. Back cast needs to be just powerful enough that line comes good before the delivery cast.

If casting stroke is began too powerfully the rod bends fast and rod tip dips and sends TL wave to the line. And if you can not accelerate long enough the rod begins to straighten too early and line path rise and there comes more TL.

When I start casting I watch anchor set and D-loop formimg but when casting starts to go smooth I don't need much but when conditions like wading depth, current, wind, line head, fly size, etc change I need to watch again but usually less time.

Esa
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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-28-2019, 03:04 PM Thread Starter
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Hi guys,

many thanks to all of you, you pointed out few faults:

1 My lift (higher)
2 my sweep (accelerate)
3 D loop (little pause)
4 my forward stroke (less power, use my bottom hand, position my elbow and arms)

I will have to try it soon!!
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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-28-2019, 04:51 PM
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DavidChem- - - Watched your video. If your a beginner, than I am glad your drone can not fly over me. Happy to read comments from others here that certainly apply to me. However, I feel you cast pretty darn well.
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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-28-2019, 06:39 PM
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The way you make the upstream lift is not the most important phase of a double cast, because an imperfection there can be largely corrected by the swingaround. However, it will be more efficient if you change two things: (l) Don't hold the rod out from your body during the upstream lift; keep your hands closer to your chest - but not too close. (2) Don't swing the rod tip behind you during the upstream lift; end that phase with the rod pointing upstream. (During the swingaround, keep the rod tip level, at head height or a little higher. Don't dip it down.)

The striking thing about this video is that every double spey cast shown was successful. That's remarkable for your second attempt at a new spey cast.
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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-28-2019, 08:07 PM
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A tip that I have worked on is to keep your top hand elbow always bent at 90°, should help you focus more on your bottom hand for power.



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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 02-28-2019, 10:40 PM
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Great video! Keep practicing and videoing. I commented on youtube. good work.

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-01-2019, 02:44 AM
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Very nice presentation for study

Your motions are consistent from cast to cast and the shapes are very well formed, but there is lateness to the initiation of your forward stroke that causes you to shock the rod in order to save the cast. You can correct that with a more energetic finish to the sweep, or less of a pause before beginning the forward stroke, depending on how far you need to cast. With a much longer head, that pause would be necessary, but that is not applicable in this instance.

Try this: when the sweep around passes your right shoulder, flick the rod to the rear like you'd throw a frisbee. This will fill out the D loop and give it maximum momentum. The heaviness you then feel in your hands will correctly time the transition up and into the forward stoke without having surrendered any tension in the line. That way, you won't have to shock the forward stroke for a good result.

Everyone watching your video will key on different aspects of it. This is just the one that caught my attention, and once corrected will show immediate results.

Very good form, very much in control. Congratulations.

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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-01-2019, 07:06 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks a lot for all of your comments, going in the same way.

I m sure that I will improve my cast, now I have to test it and tell you what happens. I m really excited about it.

Finally, do you think that swinging streamer with heavy tip will catch trout? I hope so, even if this is not the first aim that I m focusing on. I focus on my stroke, to get the good basis!

Here is a photo of the fish I would get
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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-01-2019, 02:05 PM
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CMCL

I'm going to upset the apple cart (American slang) here but hang with me.

  1. You are "shocking" the rod. (slow motion clearly shows it) More on that later.
  2. You are setting the anchor too far out in front of you. Not the most efficient set up.
  3. You are not giving the anchor enough soak time.
  4. You are pushing with the top hand, rather than pulling with the bottom hand

If you set the anchor, by that meaning point P not the fly, but the tip end of the floating section of the head, about 1/2 meter out in front of you, you'll have more of the D-loop behind the rod for a more efficient cast. Don't start the sweep until point P has drifted down to your right shoulder. By allowing just enough time to for the water to get a good grip on the anchor, it is less likely to slip, which translates to better rod load.

Start the sweep with the rod tip over your left shoulder, pointing towards shore. Sweep all the way around (damn near 360º) do not slow down, do not drop the rod tip, don't even think about a pause of any kind! Keep the elbows, especially the right, in tight to the body.

When you get to the firing position, pull with the bottom hand. once the loop has formed & the shooting line released, follow thru by pointing the rod straight out at the tail end of the head.

If there is a decrease in speed, at any time between the time you start that sweep until the time you pull the trigger, two things are going to happen.
  1. Gravity will take over & line will fall to the water creating more line stick. Not a good thing.
  2. The rod will unload, meaning you have to hit it harder, "shocking the rod" to compensate.

This is the whole concept of Constant Motion, Constant Load Skagit casting. This is not single hand casting where you must wait for the back cast to unroll before starting the forward cast. Nor is it traditional long line spey casting where it takes some time for that long D-loop to swing around. That short, compact Skagit head is all there is. The (sink) tip is still in the water, most of it anyway. Trust me, that compacted D-loop will be there before you know it.

This is contrary to everything we've been taught. It takes some adjustment to get your head around it. But stop & think about it. Watch your rod tip as you make that sweep. The rod is bending, loading. Why waste that load? Make the rod do more of the work, so you don't have to. That's why you paid so much money for it in the first place. Think of that sweep as throwing that D-loop out & around like swinging an Olympic hammer. You've got 500+ grains hanging out of your rod tip, swinging it around to load the rod as you go. By the time you get there, the rod already has a fair amount of load (reserved power), all you have to do is give it a little more before releasing the line.

It's all in the timing. You'll have to play with it a while to get it right. And it wouldn't hurt to wear a hard hat till you do. But when it clicks, you'll be surprised at how little effort it takes to make the cast. Do I watch my D-loop? Sure do, as it's coming around. If I drop the rod tip, even a hair, the line is gonna kiss the water & I'll lose enough load the cast will suffer.

All in all though, you are not doing too bad. This is just fine tuning your technique.

I fish because the voices inside my head tell me to.
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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-02-2019, 07:02 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JDJones View Post
CMCL

I'm going to upset the apple cart (American slang) here but hang with me.

  1. You are "shocking" the rod. (slow motion clearly shows it) More on that later.
  2. You are setting the anchor too far out in front of you. Not the most efficient set up.
  3. You are not giving the anchor enough soak time.
  4. You are pushing with the top hand, rather than pulling with the bottom hand

If you set the anchor, by that meaning point P not the fly, but the tip end of the floating section of the head, about 1/2 meter out in front of you, you'll have more of the D-loop behind the rod for a more efficient cast. Don't start the sweep until point P has drifted down to your right shoulder. By allowing just enough time to for the water to get a good grip on the anchor, it is less likely to slip, which translates to better rod load.

Start the sweep with the rod tip over your left shoulder, pointing towards shore. Sweep all the way around (damn near 360º) do not slow down, do not drop the rod tip, don't even think about a pause of any kind! Keep the elbows, especially the right, in tight to the body.

When you get to the firing position, pull with the bottom hand. once the loop has formed & the shooting line released, follow thru by pointing the rod straight out at the tail end of the head.

If there is a decrease in speed, at any time between the time you start that sweep until the time you pull the trigger, two things are going to happen.
  1. Gravity will take over & line will fall to the water creating more line stick. Not a good thing.
  2. The rod will unload, meaning you have to hit it harder, "shocking the rod" to compensate.

This is the whole concept of Constant Motion, Constant Load Skagit casting. This is not single hand casting where you must wait for the back cast to unroll before starting the forward cast. Nor is it traditional long line spey casting where it takes some time for that long D-loop to swing around. That short, compact Skagit head is all there is. The (sink) tip is still in the water, most of it anyway. Trust me, that compacted D-loop will be there before you know it.

This is contrary to everything we've been taught. It takes some adjustment to get your head around it. But stop & think about it. Watch your rod tip as you make that sweep. The rod is bending, loading. Why waste that load? Make the rod do more of the work, so you don't have to. That's why you paid so much money for it in the first place. Think of that sweep as throwing that D-loop out & around like swinging an Olympic hammer. You've got 500+ grains hanging out of your rod tip, swinging it around to load the rod as you go. By the time you get there, the rod already has a fair amount of load (reserved power), all you have to do is give it a little more before releasing the line.

It's all in the timing. You'll have to play with it a while to get it right. And it wouldn't hurt to wear a hard hat till you do. <img src="http://www.speypages.com/speyclave/images/smilies/chuckle.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Chuckle" class="inlineimg" /> But when it clicks, you'll be surprised at how little effort it takes to make the cast. Do I watch my D-loop? Sure do, as it's coming around. If I drop the rod tip, even a hair, the line is gonna kiss the water & I'll lose enough load the cast will suffer.

All in all though, you are not doing too bad. This is just fine tuning your technique.
Thank s a lot for that really good explanation!! I will apply everything!!
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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-02-2019, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidChem View Post
Hi,

I really enjoy to deal with you on this forum that gave me many advice by reading it last months.
Like I said in my presentation, I'm a French (sorry for my English) guy who fly fished since more than 20 years with a one hand rod. I also practice spinning and many thing else. My favorite game is to fish trout and grayling (see my last video this summer in Lapland https://youtu.be/Wpd6Kc_w5dk ), and I have some spot in France with big rivers (100 meters wide, 2m deep and high slope, in the mountain) and very large trout (60 cm is very common, 70 cm also) who are not afraid to attack really big streamer.

So here I am, since 1 month I fish with a double hand rod, a Sage Mod 13ft 7', with a 525 gr Rio floating skagit line and some MOW Tip and big streamers. It s hard in France to find good things about it, and spey pages is a Bible for me. I also looked a lot of video (Ashley fly shop etc...). First of all, do you think that my setup is all right?

My first try was really bad, so I decided to learn step by step, and I chose the double spey to be the first cast I want to learn (for me it seems to be the easiest..). I know that I will need to learn the perry poke and maybe snapeT to be able to fish many situations depending on the direction of the wind and the river.

So, for the double spey cast, I know the basis of the lift, the sweep, the D loop and the forward stroke. But I know that I may have some adjustment to do to be able to cast at good distance (important for my spot), and here you are &#x1f642;


Because I don't have a guide in France to teach me, I decided to film myself last week with a drone, then I could see what's good/wrong in my cast. It s really great to do that because you can see many fault that you can't imagine!

So I want to give you that video of me and I hope that you could tell me about it to improve my cast (this only my third time I fish with my skagit system,... Be cool )

https://youtu.be/0l4cRPRYLe4

I think I understood many things:

-> Positioning the anchor is very important
-> The speed of the swing has to accelerate at the end or the D-Loop will not charge the rod enough. But if the anchor leave the water all of the energy would be lost
-> It s good to take a look at the D loop before the final forward stroke.
->I don't have to get to much power on the forward stroke. I need advice on that step because I m not sure I m OK.

I hope that you could give me some advice to improve everything.

I enjoy to speak with you soon. Don't hesitate to ask me if you need more information.

++++

Ps: I really like the idea of learning skagit.

Applause!
Not bad at all. Going at it alone and you're looking real good. Far better than my first attempts for sure.



On casting- I think you'll come to realize as you go along that the fly is what anchors the cast. So the fly is the anchor and its position and attitude - in relation to your casting shoulder and your intended target - is very important part in setting up for an efficient forward cast.

Couple of things I noted in your vid/casts. You lift and reposition the anchor/fly as if you where standing tight against obstructions. it isn't necessary to do so with the amount of room behind you and it is taking away from the size of the d loop. Instead - try to lift straight overhead, across your body, and upstream and lay the belly of line down close to you. The other thing is that you are also bringing the rod behind your non-casting during the set-up and wrapping the rod around you during the sweep. Those two things are not casting faults per say ( one is a adjustment , and the other is "stylized" ) both are taking away from your casts at this time. You'll learn to adjust the set-up as you go along and when you work your way into tighter casting situations where you'll want to lay line away from you to avoid obstacles.

I notice you are not using both hands equally, more top hand and very little bottom. You should pull line always with both hands. Pushing fly line doesn't work. At the froward cast your bottom hand should come up against and slight to the inside or your forearm top hand...

Last edited by fish0n4evr; 03-03-2019 at 12:18 PM.
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