Nextcast and other lines. - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 01:32 AM Thread Starter
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Nextcast and other lines.

There is tons of info out there regarding Skagit and Scandi. Is anyone aware of videos or articles about what I assume are called Mid Belly lines?
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 08:49 AM
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Have a look at Tim Arsenault’s videos / instructions. Meeting him for a few hours helped me a LOT!
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 01:43 PM
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It seems these days that if a line is not a skagit/scandi head it is often called a mid-belly regardless of the belly lengths. The term "belly" is interchangeable with "body " which includes the level tip and back taper. MID-bellies are a sub-category of two-handed lines with head/body lengths between 60 and 70 feet. Short-bellies are 50 to 60, and long bellies are 70 and longer. Skagit and scandi lines are a sub-category with "head" lengths under 50 feet. There's more to it ...

NC lines used to be integrated lines with back tapers and they came in 45, 55, 70 foot lengths and competition lines that where/are 85 feet plus. They're mostly heads now with running lines and back tapers mostly gone. From wha I understand , the different models are simply cut at a designated weight.

Personally, I refer to anything not a head as an extended belly as opposed to competed bellies/bodies.
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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 02:53 PM Thread Starter
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I had assumed that Scandi and the other "touch and go" lines were more of a summer/suface thing and that Skagit was the go to for winter. Being a fly on the wall here at SP has opened me up the possibility that there may be other options for winter steelhead. This all started with me not being able to find a line that I enjoyed casting with my 8134 Burkie.
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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 03:16 PM
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No reason to stick with skagit heads for deep cold water. Many longer lines will take a tip of some kind and others will use poly leaders. Fly choices also play a significant role in depth swinging. My delta comes with 4 tips, float, intermediate and 2 sinkers. Once I go past the intermediate tip the flies must be light and sparce. If I loop on a sinker with a big rabbit strip leech I can't get it out of the water easily so I stick to synthetic materials that shed water easily. The same it true with weighted flies. Fly design will help to get down when needed as well.

Dan
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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 08:23 PM
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Have you used the search function here ??
This forum is a wealth of knowledge


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Have you Swung a Spey Fly today ??
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-18-2018, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Eckman View Post
This all started with me not being able to find a line that I enjoyed casting with my 8134 Burkie.
It is easy but takes some time. First take a shooting head which has decent long front taper and which is one or two weight class light for your rod and make it overweight adding so much heavy line to its rear (if it has rear taper cut it away) that it comes overweight. I use Skagit bellys because they are cheap and out of one there comes material to average two to four shooting heads. Usually both ends have some taper so I join it and line head comes smoother.

Then test cast tying a mono shooting line using a nail knot. Cut short lengths away until it feels good and if it became too light, which might happen, you just make it the previous weight changing its rear and use removed piece for another line. I believe you might find out that your other lines benefit tuning as well At first there comes more short pieces which get wasted but next ones for this rod needs to be only bit too heavy to begin if you are tuning longer line head because usually we like longer lines bit heavier. Shorter heads usually are lighter.

Adding thicker=heavier rear to shooting head (or in between a WF line) it is possible to make line head which weight distribution is better for Spey casting than current line manufacturing machines are able to make. Also changing a plain head to 2D, 2D to 3D, 3D to 4D etc is possible.

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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-18-2018, 07:23 AM
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Spey head weight distribution can also be changed better adding thinner tip but then its breaking stength should be test or at least considered. This does what light polyleader does but from fly lines there can be found better tapered sections and without two loops line is bit smoother. And simply using longer tapered mono leader it is possible to cast wider D-loop which increase line mass to the D-loop top and less to anchor and Spey efficiency increase and anchor blows less.

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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-20-2018, 12:10 PM
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A Few Thoughts on Achieving Well Balanced Rod/Line Marriages for Two Handed Rods

Home - R.B. Meiser Fly Rods

The one common thread that we hear from our learning curve two handed anglers is a general confusion in regards to what lines will be best suited to maximize not only the delivery capabilities of their specific rods, but also what line systems to select that will most effectively meet their intended fishing environments.

In essence, there are only two families of lines for two handed rods: Shooting heads and Classic Speys, and there are only two types of shooting heads: Scandi shooting heads and Skagit shooting heads.

~ Scandi Shooting Heads

… Scandi shooting heads are the thoroughbred racehorses of the two-handed shooting head family of lines.

These are incredibly diverse lines, with the potential for a broad range of applications. They are very caster friendly lines being quite forgiving to the entry level caster, but diverse enough in their capabilities to fill the needs of the most experienced two handed anglers.

They can be formula built to have a grain weight distribution within their tapers that will allow longer head lengths, and minimal grain weight to allow fine and far deliveries of smaller flies and minimal leader weights …

… Or they can be designed to have much more aggressive formulas creating shorter head lengths with additional grain weight. This combination will allow the ability to carry heavier tips, leaders and flies. These more aggressive heads will also have the line mass and weight advantage to punch wind when necessary.

Rule of thumb: Our formula lengths for the longer "Fine and Far" Scandi heads will be 2.65 to 3 times the rod's length, and their total head grain weight will begin at the low end of the rod's grain window, to plus 50 grains. In other words: If our rod's grain window is 450/750, the head weight will range from 450/500 grains. These heads will be best matched to tapered mono leaders, or light poly coated, mono core tapered leaders (poly leaders). Their applications will be best suited to the presentation of smaller sized wet flies, soft hackles and skated dry flies.

Rule of thumb: Our formula lengths for the shorter, more aggressive Scandi heads will be +- 2.5 times the rod's length, and their total head grain weights will range from 25/75 grains up from the low end of the rod's grain window. In other words: If our rod's grain window is 450/750, the head weight will begin at 475 and go to 525 grains. These heads will have the ability to deliver much heavier flies, heavier grained leaders, or even full sink tips. (see head and tip/leader weight ratios as defined further on in this text)

Scandi heads are suitable for all two handed rod lengths and powers, and when built to formula criteria ... They will be equally at ease with 11'0' ultra lite Trout Speys, or 16'0” 10 weight Salmon rods.

They can be built as full float or full sink lines. Or they can be built with integrated tapered sections of various sink rate materials within the front of the head. These make ideal density compensated shooting heads, which in all honesty may be the easiest casting, most lethally effective sub-surface lines available to todays two handed anglers.

~ Skagit Shooting Heads

… If Scandi heads are the thoroughbreds of the shooting head family, then Skagits are the hard working Clydesdales.

Skagit shooting heads are relatively niche line systems whose greatest advantage offered to the angler is that their aggressive grain weight distribution within a short taper will allow very efficient delivery of massive tip weight and large bodied, heavy flies.

Their short head lengths do also offer the angler the opportunity to present heavy tips and large flies within very confined casting zones. They are ideal lines when brushy bank side riparian, and low overhanging branches burden the caster.

The short head length of Skagits do also lend very well to the compact strokes inherently required of the shorter two handed rods.

Our Skagits can be built as full float, or as full sink intermediate, type 3 and 6 sink rate shooting heads.

Rule of thumb: Our formula lengths for Skagit heads will be 1.75 to 2 times the rod's length. Head grain weight will begin at plus 25 grains, and go to plus 75 grains from the low end of the rod's grain window. In other words: If our rod's grain window is 450/750 ... Skagit heads best suited for this rod will weigh from 475/550 grains. (also see head and tip weight ratios as defined for Skagits further on in this text)

~ Classic Speys

Many traditional two handed anglers feel that the true poetic beauty of delivery will be best achieved with the use of a longer bellied Classic Spey line married to a long rod. I fully agree with this, and I will always pause my fishing day to watch, and admire a skilled long line caster.

One of the major advantages of Classic Spey lines that anglers universally appreciate is that in order to successfully fish many of their runs, they need only to present, swing and re-deliver the lines long belly length, this minimizing the need to strip in long lengths of running line at the end of every delivery. Shooting heads (on the other hand) have much shorter head lengths, and each delivery will require the striping in of a substantial length of running line.


Rule of thumb:
Classic Spey line belly lengths will generally be 4 to 4.5 X the rod’s length. A long line caster delivering a 14'0” rod will feel comfortable with 55' to 65' of aerialized line grain beyond the rod tip. A 13'0” rod will like 50' to 55' etc. Their preferred grain weights will be similar to that of comparable Skagit on the same rod. For example: If your 14'0' rod performs well with 650/675 grains of Skagit and tip … I would suggest a Classic Spey of a similar grain weight.

Another way to approach the marriage of a suitable grain weighted Classic Spey would be to use the rods determined grain window. If your 14'0” has a grain window of 450/750, the happy spot for most classic Speys will be around +- 100 grains down from the high end of the grain window = +- 650 grains.

Most well designed Classic Speys will have the ability to carry both conventional tapered mono leaders, and poly coated sinking leaders with equal efficiency. The most versatile will be those long belly lines that will have the ability to carry not only mono and poly leaders, but also have the ability to carry various sink rate tips as well.

~ Tips and Leaders for Shooting Heads and Classic Speys

… Tips are not leaders … And leaders are not tips <> There are very different in both their material make-up and applications.

~ Tapered Monofilament and Poly Coated Sinking Leaders

Tapered leaders for two-handed line systems can be made up of monofilament typical of those tapered leaders used for single-handed fly rods ... Or they can be level monofilament cores with a tapered coating of poly material. The poly material can be impregnated with Tungsten or Zinc, this allowing them to have various sink rates.

Tapered poly coated leaders suitable for two handed rods are available in various sink rates ranging from hover to intermediate, slow, fast and extra fast. They will generally range in weights from 25 to 100 grains, and will vary in lengths of 10 to 15 feet.

When looped to a floating Scandi head, poly coated tapered leaders of appropriate lengths and various sink rates will have the ability to carry the fly into the water column from a few inches to a few feet.

If looped to a full sink Scandi, or a density compensated Scandi with an integrated sinking front end … These same leaders can have the ability to carry the fly several feet deep into the water column.

In many situations a correctly grain matched full sink Scandi head with a suitable tapered sinking leader will far exceed the ability to penetrate the water column then will Skagit heads with tips. In addition, they will lay out sweetly without the Skagit “crash”, and it will do all of this with far less total grain weight than would be required of a comparable Skagit/tip combination.

~ Poly Coated Level Sink Tips

Tips like leaders, are available in various lengths and sink rates …These usually designated as intermediate, type 3, 6 or 8 sink rates.

Unlike leaders, tips are level, they have braided cores and can be available in much heavier grain weights per foot. Tips can have grain weight per foot ratings of as low as 6 GPF to as high as 20 GPF.

Skagit heads are generally designed to carry heavier grained tips rather than the lighter grained poly coated sinking leaders.

The more aggressive, shorter length Scandi heads can carry both poly coated sinking leaders and correctly grain matched sink tips. The longer formula Scandi heads with a lighter grain weight distribution within its taper may do best with straight tapered mono leaders or lighter poly leaders.

~ Rod/Line Marriages

… Below are a few pointers to assist the angler in successfully achieving a correct two-handed rod/line marriage.

The two most important basic criteria required to achieve a correct rod/line marriage are:

1. Assure that the lines grain weight is compatible with the rods ability to carry that lines total grain weight (the rods grain window)

2. As equally important is that the lines head length be compatible with the rod's length.

… A few simple rules of thumb can be followed to achieve a correct head length and weight ratio to the rod's length and grain window.

Let's say for example that you have a 13'0' rod with a grain window of 450/700 ...This would generally be considered a 7 weight rod.

For a 13’0” rod: Scandi head lengths would effectively be 2.5 to 3 X rod length = 32.5’ to 39’.

For a 13’0” rod: Skagit head lengths could effectively be 1.75 to 2 X rod length = 23' to 26'

For a 13’0’ 7 wt rod: Scandi head weights would begin at the low end of the grain window = 450 grains, and go up to + 50 grains = 500 grains.

For a 13’0” 7 wt rod: Skagit head weights would begin at + 50 grains from the low end of the grain window = 500 grains, and go up to +100 = 550 grains.

… Another important issue to consider is the amount of tip and/or leader length and weight a specific line will be capable of carrying.

Lines for two handed rods are designed to have targeted and specifically engineered tip or leader grain carrying capability, just as two handed rods are designed and engineered to target to carry a specific amount of total line weight.

The bottom line for the angler to consider is this: If the length and weight of our tips or leaders looped to your heads are too heavy and too long … The head's delivery capabilities will be functionally burdened.

… Again a few simple rules of thumb can be applied to assist in these regards

~ Head and tip length ratios

Scandi or Skagit heads suitable for rods from 10.5' to 12' will effectively carry tips and poly coated sinking leaders from 6' to 10' in length.

Scandi or Skagit heads suitable for rods from 13' and beyond will effectively carry tips and poly coated sinking leaders from 10' to 15' in length

Bottom line: To achieve maximum performance <> Scale your head and tip length in relation to the rod's length.

~ Head and tip/leader weight ratios

~ Scandi Heads

Head grain weights of 250/300 will carry to +- 40 grains of leader or tip wt

Head grain weights of 350/400 will carry to +- 65 grains of leader or tip wt

Head grain weights of 450/500 will carry to +- 85 grains of leader or tip wt

Head grain weights of 550/650 will carry to +- 125 grains of leader or tip wt

~ Skagit Heads

Head grain weights of 250/300 will carry to +- 110 grains of tip wt

Head grain weights of 350/450 will carry to +- 125 grains of tip wt

Head grain weights of 500/600 will carry to +- 150 grains of tip wt

Head grain weights of 650/700 will carry to +- 200 grains of tip wt

Bob Meiser...R.B. Meiser Fly rods
www.meiserflyrods.com

Last edited by Robert Meiser; 12-21-2018 at 02:57 AM.
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-20-2018, 12:40 PM
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Bob, as usual very helpful information and a good reminder of all the good information and resources on your web site. Can you provide some examples of classic spey lines in the 50'-65' range that are able to carry tips (in addition to mono/poly leaders) of varying density depending on the grain weight of the spey line?
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-20-2018, 05:51 PM
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Now that's an explanation of lines tips and leaders. For anyone a little confused, or just starting out, that post will answer some questions. Excellent Mr Meiser, Thanks for posting.

That post should have its own category and be made a sticky.
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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-20-2018, 11:44 PM
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Some great info there Bob! I’m a bit confused by some of the numbers though. 250-300 grain Skagit Heads delivering up to 110 grains (T-11 MOW tip)? That sounds like an awful lot to my mind, I would have figured more like 75-85 grains would be a better match?
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-21-2018, 01:51 AM
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Some great info there Bob! I’m a bit confused by some of the numbers though. 250-300 grain Skagit Heads delivering up to 110 grains (T-11 MOW tip)? That sounds like an awful lot to my mind, I would have figured more like 75-85 grains would be a better match?
JB
Jason ... 75/85 grains is included within the defined parameters of the statement "... to +- 110 grains"

So ... If 75/85 grains of tip is working for you with your particular rod/line marriage, and casting style ... Then I'd say your in the money ...

... But in order to comment further on your question with any accuracy, It'd be best to know the following:

1. What is the length and power of your rod

2. How long is your Skagit head, and what is the grain distribution within it's taper

3. How long is the tip, and how many grains per foot is the tip

4. What kind of payload are you asking this head and tip to carry IE. What is the bulk and weight of the fly

5. What is your casting style: Are you using sustained anchor, or minimal anchor deliveries

These are all relevant considerations ...

Meiz

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www.meiserflyrods.com

Last edited by Robert Meiser; 12-21-2018 at 02:59 AM.
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-21-2018, 02:53 AM
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Bob, as usual very helpful information and a good reminder of all the good information and resources on your web site. Can you provide some examples of classic spey lines in the 50'-65' range that are able to carry tips (in addition to mono/poly leaders) of varying density depending on the grain weight of the spey line?
GaelForce, NextCast, Wulff and Grey's lines all come to mind ... The old Rio WindCutters, Airflow Deltas, Ian Gordon Multi Tip and Bill Drury Impacts (if you can still find them) are all well suited for tips.

Most all well designed Classic Speys will carry poly leaders ... Albeit some may need a bit of front end trim to carry them ...
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 12-21-2018, 10:27 AM
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The problem I have with Nextcast line is their designated weight. I read several times that when matching Skagit lines to rods only the weight of the head - not also the tip - matters.

The designated weight of Nextcast lines is the head and the tip; so when I bought a 510 grain Nextcast line for my TFO Meiser rod, the line wouldn't load the rod. I had no idea what was going on, until I bought a grain scale and saw that the head was closer to 400 grains.

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