Should intermediate tip gr wt be factored in with Skagit heads? - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-26-2009, 01:39 AM Thread Starter
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Should intermediate tip gr wt be factored in with Skagit heads?

After reading the article about sink tips and how they should not be added to the overall grain weight of a head, how about intermediate lines? Would those also be considered sinking tips or floating tips?
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-27-2009, 08:53 AM
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I can only speak to my switch rod experience and I say yes, although tip weight in the scheme of things isn't the important element. I have a Meiser 1064-4 and an ACR 1193-5. It's not so much added weight of the tip to the system, but the added length of the head/tip which is problematic. With switchers I believe the formula for head/tip length is 3X or less and not the oft quoted 3X-3.5X. I find with tips over 10' I really begin to struggle. So my answer would be keep head plus tip length 3X rod length or less. The length of the tippit is inconsequential and not considered in determining ideal length/weight for a switcher skagit.
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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-28-2009, 12:59 AM
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depends on what you're setting up for, speechless.
If you plan on casting the rig in a scandinavian touch-n-go anchoring style, the weight of the floating or intermediate tip does add in.
but if you're casting with a sustained anchor style a la Skagit, and the tip is what's providing your stick by remaining mostly in the water, with the belly and only a bit of the tip being aerialized in the D loop, then the weight doesn't count. In that case the tip is freight only.

that's the short version.

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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-28-2009, 08:23 AM
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original question

Speechless asks about a "skagit" head and that suggests to me the other two general spey techniques(Scandi and Traditional) were not techniques in question. P.S. In Skagit, I think not only the tip but the whole head is giving one the stick(sustained anchor).
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-28-2009, 09:26 PM
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speechless didn't specify that he was actually Skagit casting, only that he was using a Skagit line. I and many others not only cast skagit style with them, some underline and overhead with them, make poor man's scando heads with them, etc etc.
And I didn't mention trad at all. Where'd you get that one from Clyde.

In my opinion you're incorrect in your statement about skagit--but I can see where you'd believe that to be so.
All the line that's lying on the water after setup isn't an anchor, it's a d-loop waiting to be aerialized. You can think any way you like about it, but that's how I see it. To each his own.
The anchor is the portion of the line or tip that's on and in the water throughout the whole motion leading up to takeoff, ANCHORING the D-loop and keeping the line from blowing into the bushes behind you.
PS my ass. wiseguy. you tricked me into the long version.

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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 12:10 AM
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I think SpeySpaz and I have looked at Speechless' question and interpreted it differently. We've had tons of discussion on this board over the years about the differences between the major triad of spey techniques---Skagit, Scandi, and Traditional---and to my mind when someone uses the word Skagit, as in this case, it suggests that one is Skagit casting. Of course one can blend any and all of these techniques into what becomes for the individual a personal style. But for discussion's sake, the waters become mighty murky when we start talking about blended-techniques. Only Speechless knows what he meant by his question and if I missinterpreted it, I'm sorry. I stand by everthing I've said.
Now, SpeySpaz, I have a problem with your statement that "all the line lying on the water after the set-up isn't anchor, it's D-loop waiting to be aerialized". Semantics. There are 'anchors' and there are 'sustained anchors'. The anchor as we all know is the classic term used for the tippit and a small portion of the leader that remains 'stuck' to the water at the completion of the D-Loop. As you note, SpeySpaz, were it not so, poooof goes the D-Loop. No disagreement there. The 'sustained anchor' is the sine qua non of Skagit casting, the concept that separates it from Scandi and Traditional spey casting. Sustained anchor is the anti-touch-and-go. Everything you see sitting/stuck on the water(in a Skagit cast) as you are counting "10001, 1002" IS THE ANCHOR---the sustainced anchor. On the water and 'stuck' that line is the anchor, the sustained anchor; a moment later that same line is aerialized into the D-Loop. Only semantics: right or wrong, won't catch us more fish. P.S.? Not!
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 01:36 AM
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so you're saying that, in answer to speechless' question, that the portion of the line that's aerialized in the D-loop is what is counted as casting grainage, regardless of style= Refer to my first post.
have a nice day Bro.

freakin' forums. jeez.

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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 10:34 AM
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Well we're down to one mis-interpretation of what I'v said. No I did not say(or infer) "that the portion of the line that's aerialized in the D-Loop is what is counted as casting grainage, regardless of style." Don't give me credit for expounding on grainage "regardless of style", SpeySpaz, my comments dealth with Speeless' use of the word "Skagit" in his original query. The D-Loop when fully formed contains everything from the fly to the amount of running line included in the overhang and of course stops at the tip of the rod; line grainage is not calculated on the weight of those elements. Keeping my comments focused on the Skagit style where I began, I believe when discussing the proper weight of a Skagit line used in classic Skagit casting, one takes into consideration weight(and length) of the head and leader(floating, sink tip, compensator, whatever); the tippit is inconsequential in the scheme of Skagit things. Again, running line weight(or length) is not included. Speechless did not ask about proper line length, but what the heck, for switchers used as Skagits, one would be advised to drop the line length from the classic 3-3.5 X rod length to 3 X or less. And this brings me full circle to answering Speechless' original question, and my answer is: "Speechless, when you are considering Skagit casting with a switch rod and what weight line to use, the weight of the head and any specialty line you add between the head and tippit is the weight of your Skagit line".
This is the best I can do to answer Speechless and SpeySpaz, but if you want the last word, have at it. It's time for my Friday walk.
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 11:24 AM
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sure, I'll take the last word, especially since you're mistaken and it needs clarified...

a d-loop containing everything up to the fly -when skagit casting- is a blown cast, Clyde. Unless the casting style used is intended to aerialize the entire head and tip all the way to the fly, which is why I mentioned scando... Which is also why I made the distinction about the casting "swing weight" being determined by the grainage that is aerialized in the d loop only, which is true across all styles of casting.
I cast every style, not just switchers, and have many many hours of this under my belt, and this is the truth as I see it. Keep the argumentative posts to a minimum Clyde, and don't steer a new guy wrong. You're speaking from a limited perspective by your own admission, I'm not. So just let it go man.
Enjoy your walk.

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Last edited by SpeySpaz; 05-29-2009 at 11:44 AM.
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 12:35 PM
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SpeySpaz, you have a PM
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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 12:15 AM Thread Starter
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Lol thanks for the reply guys, Sorry been away for a bit, but I was talking about Skagit casting as well. Makes a lot of sense though with all the explanations.
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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 12:17 AM Thread Starter
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Didnt mean to have you guys turn this into a fight...but I love watching a good fight anyways.
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 10:52 PM
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hey, no fights speechless... it's just the internet, after all.

if it's skagit, tip plus head should fall within the grain window of the rod, most guys prefer towards the high end. However, the actual weight loading the rod for the cast will be what's in the air as you enter your forward power stroke, and the tip is the freight that that mass will unplug and hopefully hurl for you

this is true even for floaters and intermediates.
fyi, since floaters and intermediate tips don't provide quite as "grippy" of an anchor as a submerged sinktip of the same weight, try a longer pause after the set before you sweep around towards the rear, it'll give the tip some "soak time" and improve its anchoring qualities.

hope that helps.

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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-01-2009, 09:09 AM
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This thread has morphed from a query of how to calculate the weight of a Skagit line into loop mechanics. I won't go there for obvious reasons, but hopefully can make a statement which we could all all agree on to help the newbie's on these pages. The suggested grain window of any spey rod is only the starting point for the rod owner in the quest for finding a line weight(and length) which makes the rod come alive. That weight will be different for each technique used. I'm pretty much only a Skagit caster and I've been surprised more than not that the line weight(head + tip) found ideal for me exceeds the recommended window. For example, in my hands, the Meiser S2H106-4-4 Skagits best with the Rio AFS 4/5 (300gr)--- the rod has a recommended grain window of "150gr-250gr". And my last point I think is the most important I will make on this thread. Casters, especially people new to spey, MUST keep their eyes fixed on what's happening to the line during the entire cast. As one gains experience(never ends) you will begin to 'feel' what you are seeing in the line and this mental picture and feel will allow you to take your eyes off the line some of the time. In an attempt to answer the key question of "when do I start the forward cast?", no better clue is to be watching the line, and for example if your using a sink tip, know that the forward stroke should begin as you SEE a given amount of the the sink tip come out of the water. That point will differ from individual-to-individual and casting conditions----and that's what practice is all about. But if you are not watching your line, the quality of that practice time on the water will suffer.

Last edited by clyde olson; 06-01-2009 at 10:02 AM.
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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-01-2009, 09:56 AM
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agreed.

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