Skagit Casting...couple questions - Spey Pages
 
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 04:05 PM Thread Starter
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Skagit Casting...couple questions

So I've watched the Spey to Z dvd thanks to an some awesome members here on the speyclave. But still had several questions.

1. I'm casting a full Rio Skagit line and didn't know how much of the dark "loading" indicator I should have out of my rod tip? I currently have been using about maybe 4" of the black color out.

2. After I'm peeling the line off the top of the water, and am making my forward cast, when do I put more "power" into the cast to make it go further? As of now, when I initiate more power, the backwards D loop goes too far back and snaps the fly and leader out of the water and hits things behind me. Which apparently shows i'm overpowering it, but am unable to figure when to put more "oomph" into a cast to get it out.

3. Which part actually is anchoring the cast? The sinktip leader? Cause my skagit head has been pretty much out of the water by the time I'm making my forward stroke. (not using a cheater)

I may have more as I practice more, but those seem to be the bigger questions right now. I'm using a 600 gr Rio Skagit on a 14 8/9 BIIX...and am getting a 550 gr btw.
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 04:22 PM
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1. Experiment with "overhang"..until you get the right feel for you. By questions #2 and #3 it sounds like you could use a bit more.

2. The "snap" comes (for me) when you pull you anchor.

3. You're pulling your anchor. I want my forward stroke to occur just when the tip(I use Skagit heads) lifts off the water...Sounds like you are lifting the entire head out of the water (or nearly)....Which means you're using WAY to much of an aggressive move on your "backcast" (your load move on the way back).

I'll bet you need to SLOW DOWN! Set your "D" loop with a little less aggression...(or a lot less)...and go forward just as the head begins to lift from the water.

my 2 cents...

Keith

Last edited by moethedog; 05-06-2009 at 02:39 AM.
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 04:36 PM
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The beauty of "Skagit" type casting methods is that less truely is MORE. It sounds you are trying to apply way to much power in every part of your cast. Slow down and back off on the throttle. With a properly lined Skagit system the rod does 99% of the work for you.

If your tempo and (low) power application are right, you should be able to cast your setup with the color change right at the rod tip (and with up to about 4 feet of overhang). Keeping the color change at the rod tip will help you keep your forward-traveling loop open, a good thing with big and weighted flies.

Bert
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 05:24 PM
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I agree with the above comments. I just learned to Spey/Switch cast this Spring. Slowing the motion down helps out a lot. Also, you will not get the same large D loop as you would using a traditional Spey line.

Keep praticing.
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 06:20 PM Thread Starter
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So would I need to keep the skagit head touching the water? Or is it ok to have the skagit head off the water?

Next time I go out I'll have to experiment with the speed. Sometimes when I do slow down, the skagit head does go out, but am only able to get a 50 - 60 feet cast out...(15 sinktip, 27 head, and about 10 - 15 feet running line). Well I guess I'm only able to attain that 50 - 60 feet ratio regardless of speed .

Thanks for the replies, they have helped me to consider mentally what I'm doing wrong. Maybe I'll have my wife video tape it for me so you guys can blast my casting lol.

Last edited by speechless33759; 05-06-2009 at 03:42 PM.
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 06:48 PM
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I agree as well. Slowing everything down will always help unless you are trying to anchor in swift water.

Ed Ward did a demo a the Sandy Clave a few years back where he in essence described the Skagit cast as the slow steady application of centrifugal force to from the line to the rod as you sweep it.

Think of sweeping the rod tip around you while steadily gaining speed/momentum and then accelerate that smoothly into the forward stroke. The rod tip should almost draw a circle in the air and once the rod loads it should never pause or unload then reload. The rod tip should also remain low during the sweep to get the full benefit of the water's surface resistance.

I may have butchered Ed's explanations and please correct me, but this is how I interpreted him and when I do this properly it is a smooth, effortless cast.

Cheers,

Kevin
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 09:59 PM
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1. I'm casting a full Rio Skagit line and didn't know how much of the dark "loading" indicator I should have out of my rod tip? I currently have been using about maybe 4" of the black color out.

extending your overhang can help prevent you from blowing your anchor...

2. After I'm peeling the line off the top of the water, and am making my forward cast, when do I put more "power" into the cast to make it go further? As of now, when I initiate more power, the backwards D loop goes too far back and snaps the fly and leader out of the water and hits things behind me. Which apparently shows i'm overpowering it, but am unable to figure when to put more "oomph" into a cast to get it out.

smooth acceleration to a stop.


3. Which part actually is anchoring the cast? The sinktip leader? Cause my skagit head has been pretty much out of the water by the time I'm making my forward stroke. (not using a cheater)


half out and go is the general principle, meaning when you see half your sink tip out of the water begin your forward stroke.

if pulling your anchor is still preventing you from applying as much power as you would like consider setting your anchor and then allowing a couple seconds for your sinktip to sink before going ahead and forming your d loop. this will allow you to put more power into the sweep and d loop formation. if done right your forward stoke should be the part that remains the same not the part where you apply the majority of the power.

this is all borrowed and interpreted info from various resources i dont claim to be the expert but i hope this helps...
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 11:04 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attack View Post
1. I'm casting a full Rio Skagit line and didn't know how much of the dark "loading" indicator I should have out of my rod tip? I currently have been using about maybe 4" of the black color out.

extending your overhang can help prevent you from blowing your anchor...

2. After I'm peeling the line off the top of the water, and am making my forward cast, when do I put more "power" into the cast to make it go further? As of now, when I initiate more power, the backwards D loop goes too far back and snaps the fly and leader out of the water and hits things behind me. Which apparently shows i'm overpowering it, but am unable to figure when to put more "oomph" into a cast to get it out.

smooth acceleration to a stop.


3. Which part actually is anchoring the cast? The sinktip leader? Cause my skagit head has been pretty much out of the water by the time I'm making my forward stroke. (not using a cheater)


half out and go is the general principle, meaning when you see half your sink tip out of the water begin your forward stroke.

if pulling your anchor is still preventing you from applying as much power as you would like consider setting your anchor and then allowing a couple seconds for your sinktip to sink before going ahead and forming your d loop. this will allow you to put more power into the sweep and d loop formation. if done right your forward stoke should be the part that remains the same not the part where you apply the majority of the power.

this is all borrowed and interpreted info from various resources i dont claim to be the expert but i hope this helps...
So basically no acceleration other than a smooth constant stroke? When I go back out to practice, I'll let you know how I do.
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-05-2009, 11:42 PM
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nooo acceleration is good, giving it an uncontrolled wack is bad...
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-06-2009, 02:23 PM
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go back and review the RIO DVD of Scott and Mike doing traditional skagit casts and note how little effort is necessary - this should also answer many of your other questions about what is actually anchoring the line and why you may be pulling your anchor - there is very little hand arm motion - a very compact stroke with not much power
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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-07-2009, 02:53 PM
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The one things that adds effort to a Skagit cast is a MEGA FLY. Sometimes an additional push or "pop" is needed to get those big leeches free of the water.

Otherwise, not much effort is needed.

So maybe try casting with a smaller traditional hairwing until you get the details down and than start moving into bigger flies which is the same motion but a slightly bigger push at the end.

The devil you know is better than the devil you don't.
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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-10-2009, 11:03 PM Thread Starter
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Well went out "practicing" today and wanted to thank you guys for your help. I did slow down a lot and was able to get a hang of things. After observing a couple things while I was casting I did notice a couple things wrong with my casting.

1. Too much "right" hand push.
2. I needed to slow things down...but not to a crawl.
3. There's a sweet spot when loading the rod that I should "feel" for
4. Initial fly placement before casting is important.

But anyways, was casting a whole 3 hours and didn't fatigue at all. And was rewarded with a 9lb striper! My very first and boy did it feel like a truck on that rod. Akcaster was right when he said the 14 8/9 feels more like an 8 wt...but boy was it fun!

I'm experimenting with different setups on the rod so I will probably have more questions as I experiment with cheaters, lighter heads, etc. But so far you guys on this board have been very helpful for a noob!
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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-11-2009, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speechless33759 View Post
4. Initial fly placement before casting is important.
I would call this the most important of the 4 and one of the hardest things to master.

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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 05-11-2009, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speechless33759 View Post
So I've watched the Spey to Z dvd thanks to an some awesome members here on the speyclave. But still had several questions.

1. I'm casting a full Rio Skagit line and didn't know how much of the dark "loading" indicator I should have out of my rod tip? I currently have been using about maybe 4" of the black color out.

2. After I'm peeling the line off the top of the water, and am making my forward cast, when do I put more "power" into the cast to make it go further? As of now, when I initiate more power, the backwards D loop goes too far back and snaps the fly and leader out of the water and hits things behind me. Which apparently shows i'm overpowering it, but am unable to figure when to put more "oomph" into a cast to get it out.

3. Which part actually is anchoring the cast? The sinktip leader? Cause my skagit head has been pretty much out of the water by the time I'm making my forward stroke. (not using a cheater)

I may have more as I practice more, but those seem to be the bigger questions right now. I'm using a 600 gr Rio Skagit on a 14 8/9 BIIX...and am getting a 550 gr btw.
1. More speculation than anything, probably about a foot of overhang would work well, over hang will necessitate that you power the cast with your bottom hand (even when pulling the Skagit head off of the water). Top hand bad bottom hand good .

2. Don't apply anymore power with your arms use your trunk muscles, put your butt in to the cast.

3. So long as you don't have a bloody L in your anchor it shouldn't matter.

Alcohol doesn't make me less inhibited, it just makes me more of a retard.
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