Fly placement on the water? - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 11:49 AM Thread Starter
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Fly placement on the water?

Looking for some help on where to place my cast on the water?
As I got all the casting videoís, Iíve notice that 70% of all the cast are being cast to 45į angle or to the dangle. Is this the way to swim flies or do you cast crossed the stream at a 90į, swimming the fly on the swing? Does anyone have, or know of any actual video fishing for steelhead and not a casting instructional video? Iím looking for more along the line of swimming fly techniques and spey presentation techniques in a video. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 02:01 PM
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Bob, you'll get lots of answers on this one.

But to start, one reason to cast down/across is to get the fly under 'tention.' Common thought is this is when (on the swing) the fly is actually 'fishing.' More across, with a (usually upstream) mend, gives you a 'nymphing' fly first presentation.



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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-02-2006, 02:18 PM
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There is no right or wrong method - just different methods. Fred is right that down and across gets fly under tension and "swimming" quickly. It generally does not get the fly as deep as more of an across stream cast or even a slightly upstream cast - this will get the fly to maximum depth before it begins to "swim" as the line comes under tension. This method often requires more line manipulation and mending to get the fly to do what you want

Just because the fly is not swimming does not mean it is not fishing! Many flies that use soft material such as rabbit and marabou will undulate even if dead drifting. I often change my tactics depending on the water I am fishing and how the fish are reacting
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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-03-2006, 04:06 PM
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I dont want my fly under "tension" right away!!I get a lot of fish before it is under tension.I Like a sideways profile as long as I can get it!I get them on the dead float.With a lead eye string leach or intruder you get a head down sink which then straightens and swims.I also get a lot of takes just as the fly starts to come under tension and starts to rise and escape towards shore.If made at 45 and already under tension,you dont get that movement that entices the grab!I believe most people cast at 45 because it is easier to make the cast and have it swim without a lot of corrrection work.I like it to land beteen 70 and 90,depending on the water.If the cast is made correctly,it dosn't need any mends.I am only talking about with a sinktip.Beau

Last edited by beau purvis; 12-04-2006 at 09:49 AM.
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-03-2006, 10:59 PM
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John Hazel's Spey Fishing Steelhead DVD has a lot about reading water and some about "swimming" the fly. Shot on the Deschutes.
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-04-2006, 12:04 AM
 
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Dec Hogan's book talks about line placement with floaters and sink tips. 45 degrees downstream with floaters because you're fishing as soon as it hits the water, but straighter out with sink tips so they have a chance to get down.
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-04-2006, 01:06 AM
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not sure its really that formulaic. Depends how deep you want to get, sink rate of your tip (if you're using one), speed of the water, etc. It really just takes fishing and getting a feel for it.
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-04-2006, 09:05 AM
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Beau is dead on especialy when the water is cooler than optimum. i believe this is the key to consistantly getting hook ups with the wet fly swing. i also agree that it is one of the main reasons some folks seem to hook most of the fish, even when using similar flies in the same run.

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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-04-2006, 03:13 PM
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I noticed this same thing on a Spey casting video and the Spey clinics and claves I've attended. The casting demonstrators are making fantastically long casts - mostly between 30 and 45 degrees out from the dangle. That's fine for top water work, which makes up less than 15% of my steelheading. I'm usually fishing a well sunk fly, and sunk ain't happening on a 30-45 degree cast.

When I used a single hand rod and fished a 15' sink tip and unweighted fly, I commonly placed my cast 110 degrees upstream from the dangle, giving my sink tip and fly ample opportunity to sink to the fishing zone. Learning to Spey cast on my own and make such a large change of direction really hampered my learning curve. There is definitely a difference, in degree of difficulty at least, between the classy looking demonstration cast and a "working" cast for effective sunk fly work.

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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-04-2006, 05:37 PM
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You can also cast at a 45 and feed line out till it sinks, then continue the swing. Some people find single speys easier to do on the 45. Although if you watch Dana's technique even I could regularly single a decent length of line.
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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-05-2006, 02:07 AM
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Aahem!

Not ALL of us demonstrating at the Claves cast at 45 degrees or less. But hey, those long, sharp angled casts sure do impress the crowds! I've been doing demos at the more reknowned west coast Claves for a few years now and it is really surprising to me how FEW people ever seem to notice this point (the window of angle change for casts) or realize the ramifications that it has on the breadth of one's fishing.
Ever notice at those Claves all the people in "the lineup" singlespeying 70, 80, 90+ feet of line, yet if you drew a line from where their "fly" was landing to a point perpendicular to the beach, they are only covering a swath of river that is 40' or less in width?!?!

Casting ACROSS river, why that's pure blasphemy, so brutha's and sista's, singlespey away!!!!!!!

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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-05-2006, 08:54 AM
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ahem again

hey some of us out here really like the single and can do it to 90 deg or better seriously this is one big time key point and everyone says how good RA is at cleaning out the pool. you would think folks would pay more attention to these little tricks from someone who has a reputation of hooking more than most. i think a lot of the claves do put too much emphasis on casting and not enough on what to do when the fly hits the water, preferably at 90 deg!

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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-05-2006, 11:13 AM
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I have said this before.In a normal piece of water on a large river,I hook most of my fish before the fly swings in to a point where a lot of clave demo casts land,let alone where they actually start to fish!Ra,I actually feel I can deliver pretty good most of the time with the single.Certainly farther than 40 ft and I only need 40 ft of line out!Not 100ft to cover 40 ft! However,if I really need to get waaay out there and compete with a lure guy on a Skeena break,I go with the snap T or double from my "off shoulder .Second choice would be same off my right shoulder[thanks to your help]!At the other extreme there are spots where the fish travel in tight to the bank.Obviously,you dont even hardly cast in those situations[leader length].I still want to cover it all with a sideways presentation starting at 90 deg!Only exception for me is a skatter.Beau
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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-05-2006, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riveraddict
Not ALL of us demonstrating at the Claves cast at 45 degrees or less. But hey, those long, sharp angled casts sure do impress the crowds! I've been doing demos at the more reknowned west coast Claves for a few years now and it is really surprising to me how FEW people ever seem to notice this point (the window of angle change for casts) or realize the ramifications that it has on the breadth of one's fishing.
Ever notice at those Claves all the people in "the lineup" singlespeying 70, 80, 90+ feet of line, yet if you drew a line from where their "fly" was landing to a point perpendicular to the beach, they are only covering a swath of river that is 40' or less in width?!?!

Casting ACROSS river, why that's pure blasphemy, so brutha's and sista's, singlespey away!!!!!!!
I dont think that it is a fault of the cast itself (Single Spey), if the angular change is limited to 45 degrees or less, as we all know, that wider angular changes can be made with SS, if required (see e.g. http://speypages.jp/singlespey03.MPG).

Here in Scandinavia, mostly used cast is the shooting head single spey, and many of us cast regularly 90 degrees for atlantic salmon with it. Some of us also with a longbelly line. Of course, the longer the belly, the more difficult the wider changes become, but within usual fishing distances, 100 ft or less total casting length, it is still far from impossible.

PS. With a cast at 45 deg angle, the distance measured from the shoreline is about 71 % of the total line length, i.e. 49 ft for a 70 ft cast and 63 ft for a 90 ft cast. But anyhow, I agree that one should be able to cast at any angle from 0 to 90 degrees when using a wet fly.

Disclaimer - the opinions above merely reflect the writers restricted ability to observe reality
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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 12-05-2006, 11:52 AM
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Yeah...

...I know that there are many fisherfolk out there that can conduct a Single at far greater angles than 45 degrees. However, I cannot help but to poke fun about the Single because of how adamant many folks are about it being THE cast, yet in reality, when it comes to steelheading, it has the least amount of latitude concerning the line/fly combinations that it will handle well.

I use the Single myself for covering short distances, but if I had to eliminate from my repertoire of casts any particular one it would without a doubt be the Single, as the alternative casts offer more actual function for steelheading.

That function is being able to conduct casts at angles greater than 45 degrees with fast sinking sinktip lines combined with large and/or heavily weighted flies and managing this with a large degree of CONSISTENCY and precision. A major requirement for presenting flies in a more broadside manner rather than a downstream attitude, is that one's casts land with a high degree of straightness and minimal "slack" so that the fly begins "fishing" immediately and also so that one is able to establish contact with, and control of the fly as soon as possible.

So, when does one implement presentations that are at angles greater than the "classic" 45 degrees? Well, that has to do with many combined factors including, but not limited to: water speed, water temps, particular race of steelhead. It is a subject that cannot possibly be explained in just a couple of sentences or even paragraphs. For now, it's just one of those things that you have to invest some time figuring out for yourself, or if you are lucky, learn from someone that knows the subject!

As far as demos at Claves go... it really isn't all that difficult to understand people becoming mesmerized and enthralled by those long, "pretty", Singlespeys - they truly look cool, hell, AWESOME! But, as an "angler first/caster second" type person demo-ing "fishing casts" it can be a bit of a frustrating situation.

Riveraddict

Last edited by Riveraddict; 12-05-2006 at 12:15 PM.
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