Skagit & Underhand Casting????????????? - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-02-2004, 02:17 AM Thread Starter
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Red face Skagit & Underhand Casting?????????????

I new to the spey game, so what are Skagit Casting & Underhand Casting and why/when are the utilized?

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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-02-2004, 03:03 AM
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Until you learn how to execute and then perform the basic spey casts with consistency, you should not worry about either of them and concetrate on the Snap-T and Double Spey, then add the Single Spey and Snake Roll after you learn the other two. Only after learning these would I recommend learning how to Skagit cast or underhand cast.
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-02-2004, 11:18 AM Thread Starter
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I don't even want to complicate my life by trying to perform these casts, I just wanted to know basically how they are done and why a person would use them...

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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-02-2004, 11:47 AM
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is available on Dana's Speypages http://www.speypages.com/. The Skagit and underhand are usually used for shorter head systems. The Skagit mostly for sink tip work with large heavy flies. Both work well for close quarters when there is restricted space.

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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-02-2004, 11:50 AM Thread Starter
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I've looked at all of Dana's videos (wish i could do it, looks like its back to the practice ponds...) Very cool.

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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-03-2004, 06:14 PM
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Skagit & Underhand Casting

Hi Anadromous
Your question regarding the Under-hand/Scandinavian style vs. Skagit style

Scandinavian style: Rods; taper,fast/med, power, stiff,
lengths 12'6"-15', lines;shooting heads systems

Skagit style: Rods; taper, mod-fast, power, medium. Lengths 12-14', Skagit is more of a winter steelhead system, where you would use sink tip's and weighted flies. It is also a shooting head system, The Skagit system came from the Scandinavian style. Hope this helps.

This fall G.Loomis will be introducing a new line of Scandinavin rods, as well as a new line of Skagit rods, these rods will be at the Fly Dealer Tackle show, and should be in your local fly shop by the first of Nov.
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-03-2004, 07:23 PM
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Once upon a time "European" and "Traditional" were the actions of two-handers, and everyone was convinced that they needed to have a particular rod to cast in a particular style. Eventually casters realized that, as with single handers, any rod action can be cast with any casting style as long as you adapt.

These days we have Traditional rods, Underhand or Scandinavian rods, Skagit rods, Beach rods etc etc, and I fear we are just getting into the same old thing again.

I would argue that you don't need a Traditional rod (whatever that is) to cast in a Traditional style, or a Skagit rod to cast in the Skagit style. The various styles of casting are just that--styles of casting--and can be applied to various rod actions. For example, I sometimes use a kind of Underhand cast for long belly lines with Traditional rod actions, and a "traditional" (top hand dominant) style with fast action rods. Both work just fine.

It is important to understand how the different styles work, but don't get trapped into thinking that they only apply to this or that rod action. Some rods might be designed for a particular casting style, but it doesn't mean you have to cast them that way.



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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-03-2004, 07:54 PM Thread Starter
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Question

Dana,

Nicely said, you ASKED my question better than I ever could...so NEW question is Dana's last post but in question form...

"It is important to understand how the different styles work"

I still do not know if there is an answer yet, I could be dense though, and It DEFINATLY would not be the first.... or the last...

Alonzo
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-03-2004, 08:41 PM
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Skagit & Underhand Casting

Hi Dana
As alway's you make a good point, I agree that in the hands of such an expert as yourself, you can quickly adapt to any style or use a style with any rod. Unfortunatly, too often as instructors we see totally unbalanced equipment, rods and lines that don't match, making this so difficult for the beginner that they get frustrated and quit. I think it's important that anyone new to this sport, gets as much information as possible, ask questions, go to the shows, take lessons, study the history of why certain rods were designed for different regions, then form your own opinion as to what style, rod, reel etc. best suits your fishing needs. I have a lot of respect for those that spend countless hours working out systems, and then are kind enough to teach us what they know. I believe we are turning a corner in our sport, line and rod manufacturers are starting to work with the same people, asking questions, designing rods and lines that work hand in glove. Things can only get better.
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-04-2004, 01:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anadromous
"It is important to understand how the different styles work"
I think the answer is "it depends." Many anglers take an interest in the various casting styles and would like to understand the similarities and differences among them, but I don't think that this knowledge is essential for everyone who casts a two-handed fly rod. One of the things I've been all about is demystifying spey casting and making it accessible and understandable in the best way that I can to anyone who is interested. I think it is fun to know about all the different styles and the casts associated with them, but I don't think you need all of this info to fish with a two-hander and have a good time doing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whorwood
Unfortunatly, too often as instructors we see totally unbalanced equipment, rods and lines that don't match, making this so difficult for the beginner that they get frustrated and quit.
Out here over the last few years I have seen far fewer examples of this than previously. I think tackle shops have really taken an interest in understanding spey casting and have worked hard to make sure that their customers leave with something that works. In some ways I think speycasting can be more difficult to learn than overhead casting--there would seem to be more variables to deal with when speycasting--so I think it is important for new casters to get competent instruction early on.

Another important thing for a new caster is to try and match your default casting style with a particular rod action. I don't know how many times I've worked with a caster, and then said "here, try this rod" and suddenly they are casting better than ever. All I did was watch their casting style, and select a rod for them based upon the way that they cast. I am often asked "what spey rod should I buy?" and I respond, "well, what kind of action do you like in a single hander?" It is an imperfect "science", but it is a good place to start.

Getting back to the issue of casting styles and rod/line choices for them, someone on the speyclave once said something like "if you really want to cast in the traditional manner you need to find a greenheart rod, silk line and gut leader." It is great that we have all of these different rods and lines and that manufacturers are going to a lot of trouble to let us know what casting/fishing style they are suited for, but that doesn't mean that you can't cast a long belly line with a Scandinavian rod or a shooting head with a Traditional rod.

So, do you need to learn how to Skagit cast in order to cast sink tips and lead-eyed flies for winter steelhead on the Mixer? Nope. Do you need to learn to Underhand cast to catch Atlantic salmon in Scandinavia? Not at all. Is it fun and interesting and downright cool to learn all of this stuff and apply it if and when you feel like it? Absolutely.

I think we're now well into the Spey Renaissance and I love all the new stuff that's out there and want to see the sport continue to grow and evolve, but I also want to keep in mind what we learned years ago when we had just "European" and "Traditional". In the end it's all still casting and fishing, and the current styles are variations on the theme.



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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-05-2004, 03:58 AM
 
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First one in the bag.

Last year was my first season with two handed gear.
i bought an entry level rod and line,a st.croix imperial IF1308 and rio's windcutter 7/8/9 line and mel krieger's video and started cold.i didnt know anyone who spey casted at the time so i went at it alone. i watched the video over and over then just segments of it over and over,man my wife was sick of that.
i spent about fifty to sixty hours of frustration,swearing,selfadministered first-aid for puncture wounds,spooking fish,misadventure and some serious bungling until i finally caught a groove and started putting fishable casts into fishable water.
i used three differnt casts.1)shooting roll. 2)overhead and 3)the single spey. that one took some time and some band aids.chuck-n-duck.
learning how to get out of the "dangle" and anchored in the right spot to re-cast was tougher than anything to get any kind of consistancy. it just started happening.at one point i felt like some idiot standing in the river waving a long stick.then it happened , i stuck my first fish,a chrome,wild,hen steelhead!i relished every second of the fight the landing and the release after a quick photo.i would post the picture if i could figure out how to shrink the file size enough to stick it here.she was just shy of twentynine inches long but she was too firey to get a girth measurement in time and took off like a shot when i pointed her back upstream.that day i went on to land two more smaller fish.that was the boost my confidense needed after six bagles in a row.after that breakthrough i didnt try to learn any new cast technique but pushed myself to polish what i had learned from previous mistakes.
this coming season i intend to bring three more casts into the line-up 1)the double spey 2) snap-T and 3) the snake roll.i love the names these casts have.
one thing that helped out big was watching the video after getting home from fishing each time i went to try to put a handle on some of the mistakes i made during the day.wife thinks im nuts,but i love it.
-Jake-
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-05-2004, 10:20 AM
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I Agree with Dana

I agree with Dana on matching the rod to the caster. I have tried a bunch of rod and line combinations this year. Tried 10 different lines on just one rod. Mike at the Redshed sent me them to try on my SS. I Tried freinds rods, the shop here has let me try all his rods. Meiser was kind enough to let me try 4 of his light rods. And G.Loomis sent one.What it has amounted to is that I just dont fit some of the rods I have tried, and ones I have owned. It`s not that they are not great rods. They are all great rods but only a few fit my arthritic body. The ones that do make a day on the river a joy. The ones that dont fit me make it not worth going. I spend 3 or 4 days a week on the Deschutes and I have a Steelhead rod that Is a joy for me to use. When the finances are available I will have one of Meisers light rods to use on trout.

So far I have wasted alot of money on rods I didnt like and lines that didnt fit them. The rods I will buy in the future are ones that fit me. The greatest rod in the world for me may be in a catolog, on the internet, or in a store somehere, but until I put it in my hands I wont know it and until I cast it I wont buy it.

Its wonderful that the manufactures take the rods to the shows. It`s wonderful that the fly shop owners get to try them. Now put them in the hands of the buying public. Reps lets get the rods on the rivers. You drive by them or go to with the owners of the shops you sell to. Plan some simple spey days, not one a year but one a week. Put all these great rods in the hands of the guys that are going to buy them. You will incerease your sales, but most importantly you will increse the pleasure of the people that buy them. Just take a Page out of Aarons (Speybum) book. He does it every Saturday morning. Of course this will damage EBay sales but what the hell.

Skilly

Last edited by Skilly; 09-05-2004 at 10:24 AM.
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-05-2004, 06:14 PM
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Skagit & Underhand Casting

Hey Skilly
Thank you, you made some very good points. I think the manufacturers realize this also, and I'm sure there will be lots of opportunity in the near future to try different lines and rod's. I know G.Loomis is committed to the new two-hand project as I sure the others are. Neil and I didn't have time this year to put together the Eastern Spey Clave but we are planning to do so next year. I believe Marlow is planning his for april and I'm sure there will be others, there is a number of fly-fishing show's that will have loads of new product. So we do have a few options, but like you I still see need for more.
I'll pass along your concerns to the G.Loomis team.
Rick Whorwood
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-05-2004, 11:18 PM
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Thanks

Thanks Rick

I really think its the way two handers should be marketed.

Skilly
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 09-06-2004, 11:37 AM
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I started spey casting 5 yrs ago. bought a sage 9140 (the bown model), and Rio wc 9/10/11 I did all this over the phone with shops on the coast as spey casting is not something you see on the rivers in Montana every day. Like Jake R. I am a self taught Spey caster who spent a lot of time watching videos, reading anything i could find on Spey casting, and countless hours of practicing with lots of cussing and swearing thrown in.
Last Febuary I was able to attend Kaufmans Spey days. I was able to try out a number of differant rod and line combinations, and talk to differant reps who were very helpful explaining the differances in rods and lines.I purcahsed a new rod a CND Expert 14 ft. 9/10. And by watching the casting demonstrations and talking to Norbero, Jack Cook and others my casting has improved. I am planning to attend another spey clave the first chance i get.
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