Rod and/or Line recommendations - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-27-2004, 02:57 PM Thread Starter
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Rod and/or Line recommendations

One of the great things about this website is its capacity for helping out people that are new to the sport of fishing with a doublehanded flyrod. However, there is such a wealth of information available here, provided by so many different individual circumstances that lead to its accumulation, that there are now enough varied, often contradicting, yet "correct" opinions, as to appear quite confusing to those that are seeking help.

I would like to suggest that whenever someone asks for advice about a particular rod and/or line, that anyone responding validate their response with some type of "history" of their angling background so that everyone can see from what circumstances the responders opinions have evolved.

Example:

Joe Newbie writes; I have the opportunity to purchase a Sage 9140 with a 8/9/10 Windcutter for a very reasonable price. I am new to Speycasting and would therefore appreciate some advice about this combination.

Longbelly Surface Fisher responds; Run! As fast as you can away from that outfit! That rod is a gutless, slow piece of spaghetti cooked way past "al dente'". The line is too short to even qualify as anything "Spey", and requires so much stripping that one wonders if there will be any time left to fish. I think that you should get a blah blah blah blah blah blah! This rod blah blah blah 20' long blah blah blah 11 weight blah blah blah very powerful blah blah blah very fast blah blah blah cast 180' blah blah blah! Be sure and get the full floating 140' blah blah line, as blah blah blah blah blah don't need no stinkin' sinktips blah blah blah blah! Don't use weighted flies blah blah blah or sinktips blah blah or shootingheads blah blah blah cause it ain't really flyfishing. I fish the Snake, Grande Ronde, Morice, and Rogue all year around with floating lines only. I do traditional Speycasting with Doubletaper and Longbelly lines, and have been Speycasting for 6 years.

Windcutter Dan responds; Joe, I have been fishing with doublehanders for about 15 years. I fish for steelhead throughout the year, summer and winter runs, from British Columbia to the Oregon coast, from dry flies and floating lines to dredging the bottom with heavy sinktips. I do it all with Windcutter lines. I have found the Sage 9140 to be a great "all-around" rod, and think that you would find the rod to be quite versatile if you decide to take up the "shooting head " style of casting. Be aware that the 9140 has gone through many changes over the years, and that they are all quite capable EXCEPT the very first version with the extra long butt grip and short fore-handle. That particular version is quite soft, and I would suggest getting one of the later models. I would also like to suggest trying the 9/10/11 Windcutter, you may find that it is easier to feel the rod "working" as you are learning, and then trying the 8/9/10 when you become more familiar with how to cast. Good luck and have fun!

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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-27-2004, 03:09 PM
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RA,
Very good post!Beau
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-27-2004, 03:45 PM
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Thumbs up Weeding out the BS

I certainly like this idea. Just bashing a rod or line because it doesn't fit with you "style" and/or chosen line is IMHO unfair.

And the added bonus is that each person will post their own Spey-casting Resume. Those are always entertaining reading!

My .02,

DS
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-27-2004, 06:10 PM
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RA,

I too like the idea of posters presenting their "vita" or at least how they arrived at the opinion they have. At a minimum it would be nice to know how much time they have with a particular rod and what specific lines they have used on it. This would give the reader an idea of what camp the poster fell into for like it or not, most of us fall into either the short, long or medium camp. Ok, some of us ride the fence one way or another between two.

Based on the two examples you posted, they both could be equally correct based on the line, their style and the use they are putting the 9140 through. When it comes down to it though, it might just be a Ford/Chevy thing and regardless of truth in advertising, the newbie fisher is going to be confused. That is not all bad as regardless of which "advice" they take as gospel, they are all good and with practice and dedication, get the job done.

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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-27-2004, 06:35 PM
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Dan Windcutter laughes a hearty LAUGH

and then begins a long blah blah blah diatribe regarding his blah blah blah casting blah blah blah resume . . .

Brilliant post! I enjoy the spicy nature of the opinions offered.
I also accept that pretty much everyone that posts here has a reasonable amount of experience. Usually it is quite evident in opinions offered. I type slowly so alot of qualifying is a real PITA.

Perhaps more mandatory info in the profile section is in order?

Cheers N I

Last edited by North Island; 04-27-2004 at 07:51 PM.
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-27-2004, 07:44 PM
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RA,

Great idea.

I find it very annoying and I am sure confusing for any one new to hear these my way or the highway reports.

For myself, I am trying to really understand the shorter and more compact stroke for the slower rods (say a Dec Hogan style cast) and the longer stroke for the fast action rods (Simon Gawesworth style). So I think it is strange when I hear these opinions that one way is correct and the other is wrong. It is pretty obvious to some of us that those with really hard opinions toward one or the other don't really understand the opposite but it is not that obvious to a new spey fisher looking for info.

Maybe just a preface like "I do not at all understand what it takes to cast the bla bla rods so I really like the bla bla bla rods" or to that effect. I am suprised to find that some really good caster will state that such and such a rod is shite when I have seen the rod in question cast with ease by others. It is really funny to me to hear the load of abuse that the 9140 brownie takes. Although currently I am enjoying the quicker rods I did fish the 9140 for almost 10 years and the thing was effortless within it's limits.

There needs to be some way that folks can weed through the advise and providing as much about your personal history castin rods and the rod in question is a good start.

Sorry to drop names above. I am just trying to find casting styles that many will recognize as both very good and at the same time very different.

Greg
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-27-2004, 09:03 PM
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RA,

I totally agree with you 100%. I think some people just like to hear themselves type.

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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-27-2004, 09:38 PM
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RA-

"blah blah blah blah blah don't need no stinkin' sinktips blah blah blah blah"

So, do you??? My smart a$$ed remark was entirely TIC. Inland must remember to post emoticons so there is little confusion.

I agree that the info gets very garbled over general questions. I long ago gave up trying to give much advice on these issues as there are 110 opinions for every 20 anglers as what works.

It all works, depends on what you want.

Here is what should be defaulted for any newbie asking questions:

"Hello, and welcome to the Two Handed forum. Any, and all questions should be referred to a dealer (or Fred, Fred, where is Fred???) so you can get your hands on the product and see what fits. Good luck on your journey, and remember, one can not buy too much gear. Also, your opinions on what works will change with the breeze, so always have disposable income ready in hand or card." TIC

Greg,

During your formative two handed casting years, how many people have you lead to make rod purchases because that was the 'hot' rod in your opinion? After spending some serious time with that rod, line, whatever, it is now relegated to 1409 4 Shitza model status??? Not trying to piss you off (again?), it's that we have both been caught in that viscious cycle for over a decade now.

William
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-27-2004, 09:44 PM
 
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I like the idea behind what you are suggesting but i am not going to type out a resume every time i amswer a question...
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-28-2004, 12:21 AM
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R.A. This is the thought I had in "my agreeing with common knowledge" post. I was just not able to communicate my thoughts as well. I also didn't dare to bring up the wincutter debate. As it turned out the loud reel example was even more controversial. When Riveraddict makes a post I listen. It is well written, well thought out and based on years on the river. Jerry

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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-28-2004, 12:30 AM
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Thumbs up Goo thread

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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-28-2004, 01:35 AM
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William,

O-man that makes me laugh thinking about teasing our mutual friend about his Shitza Pro model. Luckily I never did recommend that rod. In fact, I begged him to get rid of it...he bought a 2nd copy. Even funnier.

Someone on here not to long ago mentioned how nice it would be to know what line a rod was designed around. It would really be cool. It would at least give you a starting point at which to start playing with diff. line combos. The more I play with rod and line combos and try to figure out what the rod was designed to do, the more I find that I like a lot of rods. In other words, when I stop trying to make the rod perform to what I think it should do and recognize what it does do, the more I realize it is a good tool for a particular job. You and I both like to spend hours fooling around with diff. line and rod combos but the majority of folks just what a good kit that they can pick up on their one week of steelhead fishing and handle it as easily as possible. So, with that in mind, I can only think of two rods that I suggested to people that I would like to take back. However, in both cases the guys really like their rods and cast them well despite me not caring for the rod. If they like them and cast them well it is no longer any of my business. Of course there are some crummy rods out there but I think it is a lot less then one might think after reading all of the opinions posted here. It is more a matter of not finding the right line and purpose for the rod. Luckily, if you weed through all of the mess on here people do give up great info on good combos that greatly help out those with a new rod and are searching for the proper set up.

And as for the "vicious cycle" don't include me. I am just a student of the sport and learn more each day and hope to always do so and try to avoid painting myself into the corner with all or nothing statements. One year you had to have bamboo rods and silk DT's, anything else is crap. The next year you tried T&T's and then all else was crap, Now it is CND salar and a XLT and all else is crap. I agree with you, this is a "vicious cycle". While I want to learn as much as I can about all gear and all the methods to use it, you like to narrow your focus. Just different approaches to the sport and both are fine(your approach may be better...better to focus in and kick butt at one then be mediocre at several). We can simply agree to disagree.

Greg
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-28-2004, 05:25 AM
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Greg,

"The more I play with rod and line combos and try to figure out what the rod was designed to do, the more I find that I like a lot of rods. In other words, when I stop trying to make the rod perform to what I think it should do and recognize what it does do, the more I realize it is a good tool for a particular job."

Totally agree. Probably more than anything that is what has changed for me too over the past 5 years.

"...to know what line a rod was designed around. It would really be cool. It would at least give you a starting point at which to start playing with diff. line combos"

Yes it would. It would give the caster a chance to climb into the head of who rolled the graphite and figure out what they were trying to do. It would also make a great starting point for anglers who are not as psycho about their gear and make it much easier to hit a home run rather than run through endless numbers of rods and lines that don't quite line up.

"And as for the "vicious cycle" don't include me. I am just a student of the sport and learn more each day and hope to always do so and try to avoid painting myself into the corner with all or nothing statements. One year you had to have bamboo rods and silk DT's, anything else is crap. The next year you tried T&T's and then all else was crap, Now it is CND salar and a XLT and all else is crap."

Maybe that was a poor choice of words. I was just meaning that running the gamut is/was part of the perpetual learning curve. And if I have painted myself into a corner, those comments are nothing more than pure horseplay. (Except now it is Greenheart and Silk DT's!) You know I tend to tunnel vision until I get bored. Then it's time to go and play with new toys until things need to be shaken up yet again.

William
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-28-2004, 03:25 PM
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Howdy All,

I think "RA" makes some very good points. While I think everyone that gives advice is very well intentioned it is sometimes confusing even to people that have been doing this for a while.

Also it always goes against my grain when someone ask about a piece of tackle that is considered by some here to be on the "low end" and it is obvious that the person asking the questions will be lucky to purchase one spey outfit let alone 4 or 5. It is really meaningless to tell that poster this reel or rod will serve him better then the one he ask about if he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of purchasing something more costly.

As to the idea of a person giving their background when offering advice, that sounds like a pretty good idea. I'm listing mine now so you can all refer back to it when you think "I'm full of it". It is pretty short.

Started fishing (that I can remember) in '52, started fly fishing in '64, started fishing the Clearwater in '71, flyfishing for steelhead since '85, started messing with spey rods in '99 (I think) after reading Dana's article on making "winter lines", retired in '02 and opened a fly shop geared mostly to 2 handers and steelhead where I get to spend my time talking with others about spey rods and steelhead fishing while my wife more or less supports me. (As Fred says "life is good".)

I need casting lessons BADLY, can't cast across the room, don't care. I think the Delta/WC is the easiest line to start fishing with no matter whether you may or may not learn bad casting habits. While I've fished the Delta/WC length the most I love all lengths of spey lines and fish the mid lengths as well as the longer lines. I think they will all do the job. I know most of my customers know a lot more then I do on fishing 2 handers and steelhead so I try to shut up and learn from them. I think sink tips are very effective but I don't fish them much as I just like my floater and don't care if I catch one or not. Same for the lead eyed flies (I will be happy to sell you some).

Some things I have learned is that spey tackle is like cars and women. What suits one guy will not suit the next. I think Speybum had a great idea with his try rack and I sorta copied him with my "test drive" deal. No matter what system the tackle manufacturers come up with I think the only sure way to see if it works for YOU is to try it on the river. There is some decent spey tackle around that won't cause you to sell your kids and mortgage your house. Not everyone can afford $500.00+ for spey tackle. There is a great group of guys/gals posting on the "forum" and visiting there is a great way to spend my time as well as very educational.
Take care, MJC
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-03-2004, 04:44 AM Thread Starter
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blah blah blah...

William,
I think that most of us "regulars" have hashed out the merits of all of our different approaches to steelheading on this board enough so that we all have gained mutual respect for one another. I realize that your "don't need no stinkin' sinktips" was written in jest, and I could not help but to respond with my viewpoint on several recently covered subjects by taking a good-natured poke at several different "camps" of thought. I too have a sense of humor!

Roballen2,
Not asking for a resume', just a simple statement of your most often used "mode" of fishing so that your point of view can be better understood. I believe that if everyone took the time to write one basic sentence about their "preferred" approach of fishing with each rod "review", that a definite pattern will evolve showing what style/action of rod is favored by each line/casting style camp.

MJC,
If you want some help on casting Windcutter style lines, I will be on the Clearwater sometime next fall looking for the "A" fish. I would be happy to show you some "pointers" about casting "short" lines. I was out for a few days last year, saw the signs to your shop, but couldn't figure out where it was (I was towing a sled which meant no driving down little roads that I don't know if I can get turned around in).

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