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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-21-2014, 06:38 PM Thread Starter
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Question Correct turnover

thank you to all of you veterans willing to share your knowledge and experience to those of us new to the awesome world of spey casting. I just finished only my second day of playing with my new spey set up and I'm hoping to get some tips. I have a Greys 12' 9 wt spey rod designed to work best with Scandinavia head. Tryin to save money I found Orvis Helios switch floating line 10wt. I did this because the head length and grain weight match the recommended Scandi line size for the rod it's just all one integrated line. Both times I used a 12' flouro leader with 2x tippet, because I read somewhere that you shouldn't use poly leaders with a Scandi set up. So any how, the real question I have is every 7 out of 10 casts The leader and the fly didn't turn over with speed and energy. It either kind of floated on side ways trajectory and landed short or it came out on a more vertical plane but died in midair and plopped down instead again, of turning over well. My fly was a pretty standard articulated streamer for steelhead. Heavy but No xtra weight like a cone head or tubing. So I was hoping a wise and auspicious person might have some clues as to what I'm doing wrong.. Thank you very much in advance!!
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-21-2014, 07:10 PM
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Is this at all distances?
Are you getting a good layout if you don't shoot line?

PS: welcome aboard, and YES, you can use polys on scandi heads.

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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-21-2014, 09:13 PM
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This sounds like a matter of line speed vs. the stopping point of the rod. To a certain extent getting a good turn over of the leader is much like doing so with a single hand cast. Getting the proper loading along with adequate speed & power in the forward stroke provide speed / energy to the line. Couple that with the correct stop and you should see improvement. In the mean time remember that any cast that lands in the water is a good cast, just twitch out the slack and swing away. If I only fished the perfect casts my fishing would be cut in half

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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-22-2014, 12:08 AM
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Spot on Ard!

I've never pulled a bad cast in because it was a bad cast! Every cast, good or bad, has a chance of landing in the mouth of a finny creature!

Fish it out, and try again.

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it is not the same river, and he is not the same man".--Heraclitus
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-22-2014, 01:08 AM
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So, when you're at this stage of casting you're trying to learn the form, kind of like in martial arts where you're performing the motions without power application. The issues you describe come from misapplied power, and are corrected by improving form.

You'll find over time that everything leads backwards in casting problems. Bad turnover comes from a poor loop morphology or misdirected energy, bad loop comes from poor power application or rod tip path, and that usually comes from a weakly energized or out of alignment d-loop, which you usually see preceded by a poorly placed anchor that resulted from an incorrect sweep because your lift wasn't up to par. Damn, should've gotten the slack out before the lift!

A bad cast is like a reverse train wreck, you see. So start with fundamentals, get some coaching, and fish with good casters who know how to cover water well and aren't Aholes about their skills. Be OK with sucking at it for awhile, it's dues we've all had to pay and you'll get there.

Enjoy the ride, and keep on asking questions!

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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-22-2014, 08:18 AM
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All good advice, Ard has it right all cast are good, I've hooked fish on the worst tangles. Your casting wii improve with time and we all have to pay our dues. I'm still paying but it's becoming less expensive. I found that the proper set up is key, meaning the rod reel and line. I had to buy a lot of equipment to find out. If you have a chance to go to a clave and experiment with other gear do so, and do take a private lesson, well worth the price and shortens learning curve. I have taken 4 different lessons and I'm ready to move it up a knocht. Keep at it and it will come. When it's not working for you give it a rest do something else for a while watch the other guy. Remember some days it all goes to crap and you would be better off at the beach. Good luck.
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-22-2014, 01:30 PM
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I've had this problem and still do occasionally

First, rod stop is a key, just as it is with single hand casting. But, I feel it is even more important with 2H work. Stop the rod on both back and forward casts with authority, 2 o'clock going back and 10 coming forward. Second, you can use poly leaders with a scandi, and I think your level 12# fluoro may be part of the problem, try a heavier butt section. Finally, work on just the switch cast until you can lay out the line and leader straight most every time. Take the fly off and loop on some yard and practice, practice, practice.

Gene

Last edited by glcaddis; 12-26-2014 at 06:01 PM.
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-23-2014, 02:25 PM
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All great advice. I will add my two cents. These days there are relatively few bad rods however LOT of poor rod-line matches (just check out the classifieds). If you are able to do so, try out several different lines. With your casting style, assuming you have the basics down pat, one of the lines will likely outperform the others on your rod. I try lines from all different manufacturers and on my rods, some definately outperform others. For example, I prefer Snowbee Switch lines to Switch lines and Scandies made by other manufacturers (Rio, Airflo, S.A.) because they seem to "want" to straighten out at the end of my cast. And Snowbee actually tells purchasers of their switch lines that maximum performance will only be realized using a poly leader. I have experimented with and without poly leaders and that line definately performs better with poly leaders (per manufacturers instructions). That particular line seems to perform well on most of my smaller rods.
If you can, it really pays to try different lines (ie. Different tapers). One of the guys mentioned attending a clave, and that is by far the easiest way to get your hands on different lines. Another suggested hiring a qualified instructor, and that is a very good thing to do. It really pays to have a qualified set of eyes critique your cast - and actually show you what is wrong with your cast. And lots of practise!

Finally, if your line or leader is dying at the end of your cast, perhaps you just need to shorten up a bit. Most of us want to cast further than we are able. Sometimes, putting 10 ft of line back on your reel will work wonders to straighten out your leader at the end of a cast. So many possibilities! A good instructor will really help you get back on track.

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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-23-2014, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyriverMike View Post
It either kind of floated on side ways trajectory and landed short or it came out on a more vertical plane but died in midair and plopped down instead again, of turning over well. My fly was a pretty standard articulated streamer for steelhead. Heavy but No xtra weight like a cone head or tubing.
Side ways trajectory means something came out of plane somewhere, either your anchor / d-loop placement, or you hooked the back cast, or sliced the front cast. Print out and frame speyspaz' post. Figure out the first place things went wrong, fix that, work forward. My blind guess would be anchor, be sure everything is aligned and you aren't forming a bloody-L.

I'd also suggest avoiding any big/heavy articulated flies until your casting is reasonably solid. It's just one more complication to worry about and they are definitely harder to turn over.
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-23-2014, 11:19 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you to everyone who left your input. I took it all of it with me this morning when I went to the river and my casting improved exponentially! Spey casting is the bomb. Thanks again for all of your help.
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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-25-2014, 03:05 PM
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Yep, read Speyspaz's post over and over again. It all starts from the lift. Get the basics right and you will live long and prosper.

There is a whole lot more to good casting then using your lower hand and stopping abruptly. Start with the basics. They are the key to solid casting and enjoyable fishing. IMHO
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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-09-2015, 09:23 AM
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A few hints on the way!

1, NO slack at any point.
2, Correct power application, progressiv load of power with highest speed in the end of the stroke followed by a abrupt stoppage. Preferred a high stoppage of the rod tip.
3, Straight line rod tip path.

Sweep to build d-loop practice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSYnDzuwIac

Read SpeySpaz post multiple times.

Do a course from a well represented instructor

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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-11-2015, 11:06 AM
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I think Spey Spaz will be losing his captain's position on the Jameson Godawful casting team with all of the good advice he is giving. Ard's casting suggestions are right on, as well.

Doug
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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-12-2015, 04:06 AM
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that was my one single moment of clarity for all of 2014!!

Glad it has had good effect here, guys, and let's hope I get another single moment of clarity at some point in 2015!

The saying re: blind squirrels and nuts surely does apply in this case.

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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-12-2015, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyriverMike View Post
thank you to all of you veterans willing to share your knowledge and experience to those of us new to the awesome world of spey casting. I just finished only my second day of playing with my new spey set up and I'm hoping to get some tips. I have a Greys 12' 9 wt spey rod designed to work best with Scandinavia head. Tryin to save money I found Orvis Helios switch floating line 10wt. I did this because the head length and grain weight match the recommended Scandi line size for the rod it's just all one integrated line. Both times I used a 12' flouro leader with 2x tippet, because I read somewhere that you shouldn't use poly leaders with a Scandi set up. So any how, the real question I have is every 7 out of 10 casts The leader and the fly didn't turn over with speed and energy. It either kind of floated on side ways trajectory and landed short or it came out on a more vertical plane but died in midair and plopped down instead again, of turning over well. My fly was a pretty standard articulated streamer for steelhead. Heavy but No xtra weight like a cone head or tubing. So I was hoping a wise and auspicious person might have some clues as to what I'm doing wrong.. Thank you very much in advance!!
Scandi cast is a cast depending on anchoring of fly and leader on water only. No part of line anchored, the whole shooting head is aerialist and forming the D loop . Next step is balance between leader + fly and shooting line. To long leader + big fly will give poor turn over, just as to thin or slick shooting will have same influence on the turn over. More resistance on the shooting line (more friction or thicker shooting line) will help turn over. Today's shooting heads has mostly an profile that is not the best match for polyleaders due to the thin front and long front taper. Shorter front taper will be an better match for polyleaders and larger flies. I suggest you try thicker shooting line type coated running line dia 0,031" floating, 12' tapered leader, standard unweighted salmon fly #4.

When poor turn over the resistance is to great on leader / fly compared to shooting line. To alter this; shorten the leader or use an smaller or lighter fly, or use an shooting line with more resistance. (thicker / more friction)

When to quick or brutal turn over, lengthen the leader, bigger fly or less resistance on shooting line (thinner / less friction).

Remember Scandi cast is powered by the lower hand only, leader and fly is the only anchor on the water, short forward stroke, high stop (aim at the tree tops). Again, remember; only power with the lower hand, don't push the rod with the upper hand. Upper hand is only supporting the rod and adjusting angles. ( nearly same movement as casting double handed spin fishing rod)
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