What are faults? - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-24-2005, 08:23 PM Thread Starter
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What are faults?

What constitutes a fault is spey casting? If a casters has a good delivery loop (size, shape and direction), but his style is unorthodox, is that a fault?

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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-24-2005, 11:25 PM
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I'd say its substance versus style, and not a fault. One could say that Simon's style is unorthadox when compared to Dec or Leif and visaversa, but in reality all function just fine. Style in itself is not a fault, though certain styles may limit ones ability to further improve ones casting.

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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-25-2005, 12:24 AM
 
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Faults

Unorthodox doesn't necessarily mean a fault. As long as the caster
has appiled the proper essentials it isn't a fault. We're all made a
little different and as a result will apply the essentials differently.
Unorthodox to me can represent style. Al Buhr's style might be considered
unorhtodox when compared to Simon's. The styles are different the results
are the same.
Stan

Last edited by Speytarded; 02-05-2005 at 01:43 AM.
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-28-2005, 10:20 PM Thread Starter
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Faults!

My fault! I was not clear of my question: "What is a fault?" I want to look beyond a castors' style/sustance and be able to identifing an underlying fault(s). Dipping the rod too much on the anchor set-up, letting the line settle on the water before we delivery (line stick), rolling the shoulder causing a domed cast (wide loop), jerky application of power (tailing loops), casting arch to long, rod-hand-line plane not insync (tracking), single hand casting with a two hand rod (too much upper hand) and the list goes on. Those are faults that can be observed and somewhat easy to cure by an instructor no matter what casting style.

What I'm looking for is, is there something beyond style and substance, some hinderence, that makes loops ineffective and inefficient? Could it be a mental thing? A physical thing? An equipment thing? A fatique thing? ????

Klem, a student preparing

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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-28-2005, 11:43 PM
 
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Wink F/a/u/l/t/s

Klem,
We've talked about this a lot lately and I think you
may looking for something that is'nt really there. I
liken it to reading between the lines (f/a/u/l/t/s).
Although I'm nowhere near the ability of a good Spey
Casting instructor I'm able to notice most faults. I
know you see them better than I. You might just be
"chasing windmills" on this one.
Stan

Last edited by Speytarded; 02-05-2005 at 01:44 AM.
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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-29-2005, 02:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klem
What I'm looking for is, is there something beyond style and substance, some hinderence, that makes loops ineffective and inefficient? Could it be a mental thing? A physical thing? An equipment thing? A fatique thing? ????

Klem, a student preparing
Klem,

I think you're on to something here. At risk of getting a little esoteric, maybe you're considering the Zen of Speycasting ("I know, "the Zen of" is really hackneyed, but oh well...). I certainly believe that mental and physical sharpness plays a huge role in all of this spey stuff. A caster can have the best gear in the world, practice more than anyone, and still throw poor loops and screw just about everything up. (Of course this never happens to me, but I have seen it happen to people who look exactly like me.) If the mind and body are out of sync, the casting is hopeless. I certainly notice this in my own casting and fishing. If I am anxious, stressed or upset in any way I can really see things start to fall apart.

As an instructor I see this in casting students too. If I stand next to a student and work on something with them, it is likely that their casting will not improve until I walk away. Suddenly, what we have been working on comes together and they are casting much better. This is a mental thing. Also, if a student has been working on something for while and it isn't clicking, I'll suggest they hop out of the water and take a break. They are usually back at it again in 10 minutes and suddenly they are casting better. A fatigue thing (and a mental thing too).

I think one of the most important skills an instructor can develop is the ability to understand what their student is experiencing, recognize the signs of stress and fatigue, and then seek ways to reduce them. This ability is at least as important as learning to recognize and correct other sorts of casting faults...and probably even more.



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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-29-2005, 06:23 PM Thread Starter
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It hit me! A new title

Reading your post, Dana, awaken two things that I couldn't put my finger on and I think the title should be "Beyound the Faults lies Breaking the Habit". First, When working on a fault with a student, the student has a certain level of intimidation with an instructor's eye evaluating every move. The student's concentration is somewhat diluted by the instructor's presence. As an instructor we should be careful to make every student extremely comfortable with our instruction so as not to intimated. We should be invisable. The walking away is one good example of being invisable to the student. Second, the phenomenon of reminiscence should be applied. Reminiscence is a break-of-time in a task where the mind and muscle memory forgets the bad and remembers only the good. Your comment of "take-a-break" is right on. All of us will at some point "take-a-break" - come back to our casting and "walla" our casting improves. Breaks are more important in the learning and relearning process than we think. Apply "Reminiscence" and just maybe the progress will be faster.

Chasing windmills is not something I like to do. Maybe this thread started out as a "windmill" but I think now there is some merit to "Beyond the Faults" or "Beyond the Faults lies Breaking the Bad Habit".

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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-29-2005, 08:30 PM Thread Starter
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What an Observer thinks!

The only time I "observe" is when an individual asks for help. Then I look for faults. If a caster is satified with their casting then let them be. A fault is still a fault even when a caster is satified, Period. i.e., too much line stick, too little line stick, rolling the shoulder, jerky motion, creep (the list goes on) are still faults and makes a cast inefficient and effective even iffff the fly travels beyond the nail knot. I never mention to a fishing friend with a casting fault who is satified with their casting, that they have a casting fault (you can't help but notice over time a fishing partner's casting). It is not my business until they ask for help. A fault is a fault.
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-29-2005, 10:30 PM
 
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Smile Are Faults Really Faults?

Peter,
I know of many who get get fairly good results
even with some casting faults. An example might be
having a successful double spey starting with a
"bloody ell". I for one can do it by driving the top hand
a little harder and forcing the tip over. The cast finishes
with a well formed loop and on a line straight.
I believe, that in the "purest sense" The cast had
a fault, a "bloody ell" and not a straight anchor (180
degree prinicpal).
Stan

Last edited by Speytarded; 02-05-2005 at 01:41 AM.
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-29-2005, 11:20 PM Thread Starter
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If you're Happy and you know it cast your spey!

Peter,
Dissecting style to find a fault takes understanding of the elements and applied effort to those elements. This is the step I'm developing as a candidate for the THCI. I'm not looking to change the world only those individual who want a trained eye (that's what I'm working on now: training the eye).... My goal is to understand spey casting elements that make an effective, efficient cast. IF someone is happy with a little creep that is OK with me BUT that caster can develop an more efficient and effective cast by eliminating creep. The end result will be less faitgue, less stress on the casting muscles and maybe more enjoyment on the water.
All that said, I'm with you when you state, "if they're happy nothing more need be said". Peter, your responses has made me think and I appreciate your efforts in challenging my thoughts.

Your comment of: "The learning process is driven by dissatisfaction, not faults"' could be changed to "faults causes dissatisfaction" and the learning process begin.

Klem, a student preparing for the THCI

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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-30-2005, 12:12 AM
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With form comes function

I think the truth lies in the question "What form needs to be perfected to excell at the cast?"

NFL quarterbacks develop form to be able to do what they do, Tiger Woods developed form, Steve Rajeff developed form. There is obvious proof that in certain endeavors mastering a degree of perfect form in execution is why excellence is achieved. Why would it be any different with Spey Casting?

So, there will be certain motions that the human mind and body must perfect to execute the cast and any deviation in this form will be a fault. Right?

Some are naturals, some must work hard to find it, some work extremely hard and never find it.

The zen beauty of it comes in when the ritual has been done for so long that the man walks to the river, frees his mind and just makes the cast while contemplating, well, whatever, because the master has come to the point when cast and not cast amount to the same thing, young grasshopper!

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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-30-2005, 10:14 AM
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I know I maybe slhd not say this but it does get to the point somewhat touched on in Dana's Zen reference.Some of the best casting I ever did in the presence of my main Zen Master{one of two][I was lucky,both are great!!!],was when we were talking about his new love .I was booming them to the point where I mentioned that this shld be a new instruction technique!!!!Gets your conscious mind uninvoled with the casting and turns it over to the subconscious which always does a better job if you have properly prepared it!Beau
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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-30-2005, 10:57 PM Thread Starter
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Form......

Moose, I think that form is a result of: Understanding the elements of the spey cast, applied energy to those elements, equipment (rod, line and leader) attribute and caster's style. When a caster combines all attributes together you get form and function. It takes practice to combine everything to perfections. Practice is addictive, therefore, the more one practices the better form they should have and the closer to Zen Casting- right?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose
I think the truth lies in the question "What form needs to be perfected to excell at the cast?"

NFL quarterbacks develop form to be able to do what they do, Tiger Woods developed form, Steve Rajeff developed form. There is obvious proof that in certain endeavors mastering a degree of perfect form in execution is why excellence is achieved. Why would it be any different with Spey Casting?

So, there will be certain motions that the human mind and body must perfect to execute the cast and any deviation in this form will be a fault. Right?

Some are naturals, some must work hard to find it, some work extremely hard and never find it.

The zen beauty of it comes in when the ritual has been done for so long that the man walks to the river, frees his mind and just makes the cast while contemplating, well, whatever, because the master has come to the point when cast and not cast amount to the same thing, young grasshopper!

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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-31-2005, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klem
Moose, I think that form is a result of: Understanding the elements of the spey cast, applied energy to those elements, equipment (rod, line and leader) attribute and caster's style. When a caster combines all attributes together you get form and function. It takes practice to combine everything to perfections. Practice is addictive, therefore, the more one practices the better form they should have and the closer to Zen Casting- right?

That would be it for the average guy, but it leaves out the natural, and they do exist. Also, to be a truly Zen-like experience, all those elements- the micro dissection of equipment, physics, repetition- would have to be forgotten and the oneness of your Self and Rod would come together in an unconscious abillity to work together (thus Dana's comments on walking away and clearing the mind of distraction) that resulted in beauty eminating from something other than your own conscious effort.

The idea of a structured approach such as you suggest would fit more into Plato's world. If you were of the proper class to be worthy of the pursuit perfection would come from:
1) The body- through physical mastery of form from repetition-
2) The mind- knowledge of the mathematical absolutes handed down by the gnostics-
3)The intuitive wisdom imparted from the Gods allowing you to understand the perfection of the archetypes, the perfect spey caster residing in the heavens.

The warrior/caster/ philosopher would then be able to casually make the cast and catch the fish and offer it up to the gods

Sounds like a lot of work though

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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 01-31-2005, 12:41 PM
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Klem -

Common Faults:

Lift too high or fast
Trunking bottom hand
Hinging due to excessive overhang of running line
Over-accelerated sweep back to d-loop
Overhand-esque flick of rod tip causing turbulence in d-loop
Anchor placed on wrong side of caster (cross-over at cast)
Slipped anchor
Excessive anchor
Piled anchor
Downriver BloodyL
Upriver BloodyL
Over-rotation
Under-rotation
Excessive dip
Excessive upward force on d-loop formation
Path of acceleration not straight
Rate of acceleration not smooth
Tailing loop
Incomplete turnover
Recoil at end of cast
Hitting the rod
Hitting yourself...

and that's just off the top of my head for the single spey! Such a list could get very long considering all styles and casts.

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