spey question #5 - Spey Pages
 
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-07-2004, 06:07 PM Thread Starter
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spey question #5

this one is thanks to my good friend Rick Whorwood, FFF Master Certified instructor:

is there ever a time when you would not teach the switch cast as part of your sequence of instruction?



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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-07-2004, 10:15 PM
 
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Yes absolutely yes.. when you are actually fishing....

lets face if ,, very few people take spey casting lessons and it's up to guides to get them up to speed very quickly so they can cover some water. switch casting use useless when fishing a swinging presentation..

Sure people should learn to spey cast properly before taking a guided trip. That however is not the reality we live in and most professional instruction is very informal and is entirely about getting someone to a fishing disrance as quickly as possible, this means no switch casting...
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-08-2004, 03:09 AM
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With beginners no, because the switch cast provides the beginner with the basics of the spey cast in an easily practiced and repititive manner. Thus, allowing a person new to spey casting an opportunity to learn the basics of D Loop formation, anchor, and forward spey.

With folks who have been spey casting before, I would skip the switch cast for the simply reason that even if they don't have good energized D Loops, the know about them and the need for proper anchor placement. Therefore, the switch cast is not the most useful or efficient way to help those who have been spey casting improve their casting. They need to learn how to get a good, energized D Loop and well formed forward spey loop with the casts they are using when fishing.
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-08-2004, 03:15 AM
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Rob Allen

are you on crack?err-sorry what I really meant is are you a guide? Cause if so I strongly suggest you get your beginner clients to practice switch casting their rigs downstream before you bother with the double spey or any of dem' other fancy casts. You will be impressed how much faster snakes, doubles etc. are learned when your client(student) knows what the finished product is supposed to feel like.
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-08-2004, 03:26 AM
 
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Whistler

to answer your question.. yes..

However you missed my point.. if I was strictly teaching someone to cast I would deffinetly teach them switch casting then progress to the other casts. However on a guide trip people pay 300 bucks to fish not learn to cast. and good or bad like it or not people take more guide trips than they do casting lessons therefore the guide has to teach them to cast while they are fishing. you cannot fish steelhead with switch casts..
Also here in the states in the summer ( when most guide trips are taken) the fishing is best at first light to you gotta get people casting 50 feet within a few minutes so they don't burn away the best part of the day learning how to cast... Therefore I would not teach the switch cast.
as much as i dispise the cast the first thing i teach is the snap t then the double spey on the other side of the river. on a guide trip thats all you can do.. In a perfect world people would learn to spey cast before taking a trip but this is the real world and they don't thats just the way it is..
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-08-2004, 07:30 AM
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Spey question #5

Hi Gents
Let me ask it another way, if you were only going to teach a student two casts (short on time), the casts being a Double and a Circle "C" would you teach them a Roll Cast, then a Switch, first or would you just start with a Roll and then proceed to a Double/ "C"
The double and Circle cast are two of the best casts to get a student fishing a two-hander (quick), they can be used both banks, wind up/down. I also think a roll is important because it is the basis for all the cast ("D" Loop, Forward Cast etc.)
Thanks Rick
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-08-2004, 09:42 AM
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If we take the perspective of the student then clearly there is no right or wrong, just "did I learn or not". There is more than one means to achieve an end, and the different 'personal' touches have always been what makes your lesson enjoyable for the student.

All that being said, IMHO the answer is "no". I would think that the only time it makes sense to omit teaching a switch cast would be in the case when the student(s) have already learned it thoroughly.

Both the circle and double mentioned require a sound knowledge of the switch cast because once the lift and setup are complete there is nothing left to do but come around and make a switch cast.

If you started with only a roll and proceeded to a snap/C/double then you run the risk of having the student attempt the cast with incomplete rotation and momentum to form a proper d-loop
  • small D-loop unable to load the rod
  • lack of momentum == "bloody L"
  • anchor too big to lift
  • incomplete understanding of basics

.02
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-08-2004, 10:56 AM
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Juro,

Wow,spoken like one of those FFF casting instructor types. (Is your phone broken?)

Rob, I think you missed my point. I don't disagree with you-guided clients DO need to get the line out and fish ASAP.
5 minutes of switch casting will cause your clients to pick up the circle and double very quickly and thus fish more effectively.Obviously I tend to do this away from where I think the fish lie. This way when you put your people in a good spot they will have a far better chance of getting the fly out to the fish without whipping the water to a froth. Rob, it is quite apparant that you hold a certain level of disdain for us casting instructor types. It is true that casting and fishing are two seperate deals-however a little practice with one sure helps with the other. I think you would change your opinion of the switch if you were to take my suggestion. You really will end up with the clients able to get their flies to the fish quicker, which is what is important to you. Yes I even do this with a sink tip.
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-08-2004, 11:07 AM
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Brian, LOL I was cleaning up my class handout this morning and I guess I kinda forgot which window I was typin in

Going back a ways I used to think all the switch casting I was doing was messing up my single spey. It's true that the switch puts a lot of muscle memory to cast right back in the same direction, which doesn't help you change direction. But once you figure out how to do the change of direction correctly, that ol' switch cast is the main attraction once again so it's all good.

Rob - I know what you're saying but this question was about teaching not fishing. Guiding is both, the way I see it.

Brian - I am not currently at the office, but will get back to you shortly by phone when I get there.
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-08-2004, 07:23 PM
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Spey question #5

Gents
After our casting session today, Spey Laddie and I had a chat about the above post, at first Neil was of the opinion that it is of most importance to teach a Roll, Switch, then Double, Circle "C".
I must say this, I agree that the switch is a very important cast, a great building block to become a proficient Spey Caster. After we discussed this we both agreed that it should be taught but, that if our goal was to teach two casts, that could get our students fishing (Double and "C") that maybe the Switch could be taught later in the course or at another time.
This is our reasoning: if you have trouble with the students getting the switch, and time always being a factor, we now think that this time could be better spent on teaching the "D. S."/ "C" cast. If the students progress to this point , then by all means teach them a Switch, Snake, Single and so on.
Interestingly, while Spey Laddie and I were having a burger and this discussion, one of our good friends and spey student joined us, we asked him the above question (he had already read it on spey clave) he agreed that for him it was much easier to learn a Circle "C" and Double then go to the switch. Your thought's boys
P.S.
Thanks for the Burger and Fries Laddie !!
Rick
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-08-2004, 07:55 PM
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First of all, you all know that I'm not a guide or certified to teach anything. BUT, with the exception of the expediency to get a newbie fishing (NOT in my opinion the right time to teach Spey casting) teaching the switch is absolutely fundamental. IMHO, you get the fundamentals right first. If a newbie wants to learn Spey casting, teach it first. If he wants to fish, stick to a single handed rod.
Bill
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-08-2004, 08:42 PM
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Spey question #5

Hi Bill
Great to see you join in.
Case in point: last week a fly shop called and asked if I had some time to give two of their clients a two-hand lesson, they were going to Iceland or Norway and would like to learn how to spey cast, they had a few hours through the week, (before they leave), if I was available. Let's face the fact ,most people don't spend anytime casting/practising, even if they take lesson's. Another case in point, one of my students when asked how much time they spent practising in the last week (since our last lesson) the person said once for maybe ten-twenty minutes (granted not everyone has the time), Thats where we as instructors come in, we have to teach them enough to get them fishing and make it enjoyable. I feel a great accomplishment when I see a new person to our sport, achieve the level they seek, wether it's casting or tying, as instructors we are always searching for a better way to teach, (and we should all be thankful Dana started this site) I have many more hours to learn so keep it coming !
Thanks Rick
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-08-2004, 10:27 PM
 
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Whistler I don't hold anyone in disdain. I just approach things in a different way..

sure a guide trip isn't a good place to learn spey casting however thats what people want. They also want a chance to catch a fish.. that means fishing not casting...

All that said I am a very hands on guide.. Once we are fishing i am beside my clients continually correcting their casting and more importantly encouraging them!!!! I don't point at the water and sit in my boat.

everyone can snap tee .. Up down around and out. it's that simple. Maybe i'm not a good instructor I dunno. I am in the entertainment business and I know i offer a fun day on the water and thats ultimatly what people want. They want that fun day to be spey casting for steelhead so thats what we do.
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-09-2004, 12:49 PM
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Rob2,

I wasn't rying to discredit your guiding. I am glad to hear that you work hard for your clients. I still maintain that you might be able to get them fishing quicker by spending a few minutes doing
some switch casting before trying the snap t(or circle) or double.Let me take you back to your original post:


"....very few people take spey casting lessons and it's up to guides to get them up to speed very quickly so they can cover some water. switch casting use useless when fishing a swinging presentation."

"Sure people should learn to spey cast properly before taking a guided trip. That however is not the reality we live in and most professional instruction is very informal and is entirely about getting someone to a fishing disrance as quickly as possible, this means no switch casting"

You owe it to yourself as a guide(and your clients too) to try this approach as it will "get them up to speed very quickly" and have them casting to a "fishing distance as quickly as possible". Keep up the good work with the guiding-not like the coffee in hand jet boat taxi pointing at the water from the comfortable boat seat that one can witness on the lower Dean river(below canyon) throughout the summer(though not all of the Dean guides are like this). By the way what rivers do you guide on Rob?
Brian
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-09-2004, 02:01 PM
 
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Brian.. I'll give it a shot...

I guide primarily on the Klickitat however that runs glacial during the summer months so as a fill in i do trips on the CowlitZ and North Fork Lewis. Also I do smallmouth bass trips on the Columbia river backwaters.
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