Alignment of snake roll d-loop - Spey Pages
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-23-2003, 09:08 PM Thread Starter
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
juro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 1,771
Alignment of snake roll d-loop

I consider the snake roll one of my better casts, in fact it's definitely my favorite since I've gotten comfortable from the left side. It makes a left bank downriver wind a pleasure to fish in, and the right bank is a snake roll heaven for a righty.

Anyway, although the fly is jumping from the water into the loop without any problems and the loop is fine, I've noticed something when I stop the cast in the firing position to see how my anchor lands - the leader touches down angling inward instead of straight to target or slightly outward like a switch or single spey.

Once again, the cast goes well but no matter what I do I can not get that snake roll anchor to touch down without an inward angle to it if I place the fly forward and to the side.

Granted most of my snake rolls use an anchor that is almost along side my body on the rod side, not out and to the front like a switch cast - but it still baffles me.

Anyone have the secret to laying a straight snake roll anchor for demo purposes?
juro is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-23-2003, 10:17 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Fresno, Cal.
Posts: 104
Interesting Juro,

I notice the same thing somethimes when using a spiral roll as an alternate to a single spey (as opposed to an alternate for a double spey). Maybe it has something to do with the windup being at an angle other than 90 degrees from the forward cast or moving the angle during the windup? Don't know.
jimsand is offline  
post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-24-2003, 01:04 AM
Registered User
 
kush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Somewhere between the Grizzly Bears and the Machine
Posts: 3,042
Juro,

As with all fly casts - the line does what the rod tip does. Your anchor will lie exactly as your rod-tip motion tells it to. Therefore, for your anchor to land as you indicate, your rod-tip motion, as you scribe the bottom of the "e" - which is the motion that sets your anchor must be angling inward in the same manner.

When I teach this cast I try to emphasize that it is critical to stop the spiralling action of the line in towards the caster with a definite motion back and up in the direction precisely opposite to the direction you wish to cast.

Tight lines - tyler.

CND Rods North America
Next Cast Casting Team
Aquaz Waders
Vice-President Steelhead Society of BC

Formerly Spey Pages Team
kush is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-24-2003, 07:13 AM Thread Starter
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
juro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 1,771
Thanks for the help, I will experiment today. Just wanted to prevent the interpretation that this was a problem, the cast is perhaps my strongest and there is no conflict with the leader / fly etc. The dee loop direction particularly what I call "the driver" (tip to vee) is energized and arrow pointed in the correct 180 degree (270 from start) alignment, and the cast goes very well.

But as a teaching tool I thought it would be good to stop after forming the "e" into the standard dee motion and show the placement of the grip as identical to a switch cast, which invariably precedes the snake roll in the progression of topics.

In other words let it touch down to point out that it's the same exact launch point as any other cast (i.e. switch / single) - but when I do the leader is angled slightly inward. Come to think of it, it's angled inward on a single spey as well (slightly downriver). I think the reason bells go off in my head is that instead of being angled slightly downriver, it's angled upriver since the snake roll puts the dee loop on the downriver side.

I tried everything I could to see if I could change the angle to the opposite direction (outward) just as an experiment, and could not.

I am starting to think it's a function of stopping short, or it's because I was trying to place the anchor about a rod's length in front and to the side. When I actually snake roll the fly is almost at my side. It could also be related to the fact that I was on the left bank and casting lefty due to wind. I have very little water to choose from until things thaw out around here but I'll reconvene today during lunch hour from the right bank and try it from my strong side.

Another possible factor - I was throwing the whole head of a 10/11 Traditional Airflo Spey. I'm sure the longer length of line magnifies anything I am doing. I was recently throwing a Windcutter on right bank with Neal Brown on a windless day and doing this exact thing (stopping mid-snake) and did not exhibit the same angular placement.

In any case, next time you're out snake rolling, stop just as you're about to fire and let me know if there is any angle in the portion of line between the d-loop's vee and the fly. Maybe it's normal.
juro is offline  
post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-24-2003, 01:11 PM
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 13
Snake roll

Hi Juro-san,
I like Tylerfs explanation, means everything. Line just follows the movement of your rod tip. Single snake roll is a good example of line move exactly what you do to the rod tip. Imagine that gsnake roll pick-uph for single spey, which to cast over to other side of direction. This case you could land the anchor to other side of the direction from your pick-up. Therefore snake roll is not only 90 degree direction change cast but also enable to cast any directions. Most important point is that which part of un-clock way rod rotation you move toward to you on rod tip. In your case, rod tip moves 1) High line lift. 2) The rod tip starts to rotate from far position to towards you in upper rotation. 3) Then rod tip moving down back from near you to out. 4) Naturally line end drop to water from your left to right. This is the anchor method when you need to cast up-stream.
If you want to cast 90 degree (Anchor to land 90d.) you have to keep rod tip rotation same distance from you while rotating the rod tip.
On the contrary if you want to cast downstream 1) You have to lift line low, 2) End up upper rotation while rod tip stay in far from you 3) Bring rod tip near to you while down rotation to the launch position. 4) Anchor land to the water directing to down stream. Generally smaller rotation is easier for downstream angle. Juro-san tries in practice and watches the movement of rod tip.
Cherry Pick is offline  
post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-24-2003, 04:21 PM Thread Starter
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
juro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 1,771
Nobuo-san, Kush, et. al. -

Thank you for the great advice. I've just spent two hours on a small open patch of water tweaking the snake roll and have learned much thru careful analysis of what I was doing.

I am happy to say that I can direct the anchor anywhere from 45 degrees upriver to 45 degrees downstream at a good anchor distance for casting on command by using a simple trick and a major reduction in the rod movement on the first coil. I've corrected the motion of the rod tip to a very small motion to form the first coil and watch the extent and direction of this first coil while beginning the d-loop. I found that if you drew a vertical line to the water from the outermmost edge of the first coil (more like a fold than a coil) it is exactly where the fly will land when the d-loop extends; and it's line of alignment is the exact line into which the anchor will fall. So simple!

I found that if I managed the first coil as a small tight helix whose outside dimension was kept to the desired anchor distance and directed it (with the rod tip) in the desired anchor direction I could get exactly the anchor distance and direction every single cast.


(c) jmukai 2003

In effect it is following the rod tip, but more directly visual than the rod tip itself. Works for me!

Nobuo-san, the CND Custom 15' 10/11 with the new airflo traditional 10/11 line is a match made in heaven!

Thanks for all the replies, I will continue practice tomorrow at lunchtime.
juro is offline  
post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-24-2003, 09:53 PM
Registered User
 
Nate Bailey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Rogue River, Williamson
Posts: 909
I use the snake, so I can place my grip where I want it, thats what makes the cast so useful place the grip where you want to change directions to and fire over it, I can move from 1/4 downstream to 1/4 up stream which covers a ton of water fast, My switch most of the time is a upstream grip and my snake is a down stream grip........Nate
Nate Bailey is offline  
post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-25-2003, 01:15 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Vancouver WA
Posts: 1,074
Last year while fishing the Umpqua in pools where there was no room for a traditional spiral roll i experimented with adding a outward ( across the river) reach and acceleration at the forward stroke of my spiral followed by a dramatic raise and acceleration into the fireing position. This allowed place my anchor on the water in front of me and less 'D' loop behind me ( out of the brush) This technique though not good form has allowed me to throw spirals in areas where i couldn't before. Anyway it's something else to play with...
And Juro if it ain't brok don;t fix it

"Never be afraid to show love" Frank Moore
roballen is offline  
post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-25-2003, 04:18 AM
chrome-magnon man
 
Dana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: west coast steelhead/salmon, BC/Alberta trout
Posts: 5,375
great point, Rob!

You can place your anchor anywhere you want with the snake, depending on how much forward throw or rearward power you add. Also, depending on any other stuff you do after the initial spiral you can move your anchor to a totally new spot. I'm thinking here of the snake roll made on the single spey side: although your initial loop is made while your rod tip is downstream (at least that's how I do it), the change of direction you incorporate after you make this loop places your anchor upstream of your casting position as in a single spey. In the snake no matter which cast it replaces--the double spey or single spey--I think the most important part of the cast is what you do as you are forming the bottom part of that upper loop, because once the line leaves the water it has to anchor somewhere, and where it anchors depends on the final path the rop tip takes as it comes around and up into the firing or launch position, and also the amount of "oomph" you put into the D loop formation.

Great diagram, Juro! I need some of those for my articles in the newsletter!



Dana is offline  
post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-25-2003, 10:05 AM
Registered User
 
kush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Somewhere between the Grizzly Bears and the Machine
Posts: 3,042
Roballen,

If you want to further emphasize having your anchor set further out into the river after the spiral. Start your lift-spiral motion towards the centre of the river instead of towards the bank you are standing on. This will automatically put your anchor out in front of you.

This is the opposite to what I say when am teaching this cast, as most people find the movement towards the bank illogical and therefore set their anchor too far in front of them. However, as I've said many times, fishing situations often require some some creative solutions, to which of course Dana's counterpoint is that the more you know about casting - the easier it is to ad lib!

Tight lines - tyler.

CND Rods North America
Next Cast Casting Team
Aquaz Waders
Vice-President Steelhead Society of BC

Formerly Spey Pages Team
kush is offline  
post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-25-2003, 10:32 AM Thread Starter
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
juro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 1,771
Dana, I'd be more than happy to put the digital stylus pen to work doing diagrams for your newsletters. These can be made into automated images although it takes quite a bit longer. Maybe we could discuss the potential of a DVD packed with automations and video clips of forum casters with your dialog; somewhere down the line. I know I'd buy it!
juro is offline  
post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-28-2003, 01:08 PM Thread Starter
Coast2coast Flyfishaholic
 
juro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Steelhead country|striper coast|bonefish belt
Posts: 1,771
Slight correction in the above diagram - although the first coil holds the energy under tension and 'wants' to drop the end of the fly line in that spot, a lightly formed first coil combined with a strong d-loop stroke overcomes that tendency easily and the anchor can be pulled into a different location in line from that coil if desired. I was experimenting with this and found that when actually casting (verses dropping the anchor to make a point about how to finish the cast) it's common to defeat that tension and pull the fly closer alongside.

I found that the more energy one puts into the first coil, the more it wants to stay in that point of dissipation on the outer edge. The less one puts into it, the easier it is to place the anchor elsewhere further up the line toward the angler - but the d-loop stroke must improve proportionately.

When an upriver wind arose, the lighter helix was prone to floating out of control whereas the harder coil was stable albeit not dropping the anchor in the ideal location.

With the high-energy first coil method, as long as the anchor was placed outside of the line of fire or close enough so that the loop could pull it into the wedge without hitting itself, the direction of the top half produced a good cast regardless of the lower half's vector. It was easier to load the rod but more prone to alignment problems.

I also recall using the hard snake to lift a tip with a mid-spey length head easily and effectively recently while winter run fishing. The short head allows one to slip the anchor a little before making the hard stroke forward to correct for palcement glitches.

The light snake took a lot more patience and care to form a good d-loop but it required much less energy in the arms and with some practice I think it will lead to development of an "efficient" cast with the snake that also trains the circle single motion to provide greater directional freedom. I am definitely a student of Dana's efficient casting philosophy. Primarily because when I cast hard it doesn't go any better than when I find the finesse that the rod, line and stroke has to offer inherently.

It's also harder to find the narrow 'alley' thru which to load and pass the forward cast because the line is under less tension in the d-loop but once located a surprisingly high-speed tight loop could be thrown despite a relaxed d-loop.

In any case, when the snake was not working well taking a moment to reduce the diameter and energy in the first coil and focusing on a good d-loop (as Tyler suggested) brought me back into a clean motion very quickly.

Watching Tyler's famous snake roll video shows how patiently and well he forms the loop which is probably why he casts the proverbial country mile.

Another interesting variation was to use a light snake to set up a perry poke. The fly can be placed in a good position after which the lowering of the butt to the opposite hip forms a nice fold, then a strong stroke puts fly back out with minimal backcasting room required.

Consequently, this series of experiments made my reverse snake roll consistent and I look forward to refining it going forward. This was my worst cast until now, the left-handed single spey has re-taken it's spot as the one I need to work on the most.

Not sure if this belongs in an instructor thread but I am enjoying being a student of the spey! Special thanks to Tyler and Dana for two principles that really paid off for me.
juro is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Spey Pages forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Linear Mode
Rate This Thread:



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome