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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-07-2001, 12:53 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Mr.ShanksDate: 10/6/2001 7:53 PM
Hi All
 
A friend of mine asked me a question that I could not answer to either of our satisfaction.  He wanted to know if the amount of stick (anchor) would change with the amount of line outside the rod tip ( more or less) and if so, by how much.  How would this effect the loading of the rod?  Would it be different with a floating line than a sink tip for the same amount of line outside the tip, and would it be different with different casts
Thanks
Mr.Shanks
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-07-2001, 03:30 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Nooksack MacDate: 10/6/2001 10:30 PM
   Talking about this subject is attempting to express the ineffable; as the precept goes, "if you can't measure it, it isn't science," and I don't even know what units of  measurement would be used.  That said:  I believe that the more line outside the tip, the greater would be the line stick, with any line/fly combination.  For a given amount of line, greater speed (whether from the rod's modulous or the caster's fast-twitch muscle response, or both) would decrease the line stick.  Fly weight and sink-tip density, as compared with an all-floating line, drastically increases line stick.  Expressed as percentages of a casting stroke's total energy, launching a No. 8 Steelhead Bee with a floating line might only take 5-10%; ripping a 2/0 maribou spey and 15-foot extra-dense sink-tip from their bottomward plummet could easily take a third of the required total energy.  Anyone with a mechanical engineering background is encouraged to comment. 
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-07-2001, 04:30 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Mr.ShanksDate: 10/6/2001 11:30 PM
Thanks for the response,
 
The more line you have outside the tip, the more grains you would have outside the tip. So this should increase the load on the rod. The more stick at this point would cause the rod to load deeper, so would you want more stick or less?
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-07-2001, 09:21 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Nooksack MacDate: 10/7/2001 4:21 AM
  It's not a question of whether more line stick is better than less, or vice versa; it's about having just enough.  Line stick, the spey cast's water anchor, is our temporary friend.  An ideal back stroke would have 99% of the energy needed to pop the fly out of the water.  Haven't we all had the experience of putting a bit too much power into the D-loop and having our spey cast turn into an overhead backcast?  Line stick is something like a troller's downrigger release: we want to be able to get rid of it the moment it has performed its function.
   Derek Brown, in his Spey Masterclass video, has a sequence on practicing backstrokes with the line tied to a spike in the ground.  I've found a possible improvement: a 1-pound round lead sinker with the usual brass eyelet.  I practice backcasts with a leader attached to it; my object is to make the sinker hop, but not move toward me.
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-07-2001, 11:26 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: AndyDate: 10/7/2001 6:26 AM
At one point the phrase "kissing the water" was used to describe the perfect line stick to me.  I think it echoes NooksackMac's point of having just enough line stick to do the job of anchoring your forward delivery.
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-10-2001, 11:15 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: SimonDate: 10/10/2001 6:15 PM
A very interesting question!

Line stick does, or should, change according to line length. There needs to be enough anchor to hold the momentum of the belly, yet little enough for the belly to overcome it. For example, if you were to spey cast with 2' of line and you had 1' of stick and 1' of belly the cast would work perfectly. However, if you had 85' of line, 1' of stick would never be enough to anchor the belly - it would just kick out and fall in a heap (if not a tree!) With that length of line 10-15' of stick is needed.

Sinking lines do affect it, as well. If you are fishing with something like a Big Boy 400grain sink tip then the length of stick must be less - say 5 feet. No matter how good your timing is there will be a moment when the sinking portion is on the water sinking. Even if the tip is only 2" under water, the extra drag will kill the cast unless the stick length is reduced.

I don't know any spey caster good enough to be able to exactly judge the amount of stick. It becomes an instinct when to go forward with a different line length, a different density, even a different current speed will affect it. Unfortunately you can't quantify the length, you just have to work on 'more or less' according to the result of the previous cast!

All the best
SImon Gawesworth
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-11-2001, 03:24 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Dan WrightDate: 10/10/2001 10:24 PM
I have noticed, too--as I adjust my timing based on the result of the previous cast and the changes in current and wind--that changing footing as I move down a run affects my timing more than I can always predict. I suspect that stepping into slightly deeper water causes more "stick" than previous casts and my timing suffers. I know: don't step into deeper water, but sometimes even a depth shift of only a couple of inches makes some difference. Still working, still throwing...
 
Dan
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-11-2001, 07:35 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Mr.ShanksDate: 10/11/2001 2:35 AM
Thanks again for keeping this going.
 
Question: when you roll cast (single handed) you need the line tension on the water to load the rod. When you make a shooting roll cast you shoot line behind you,  stop the rod and make the forward cast. The amount of line behind you is sufficient to load the rod (yes or no) if this be true then when you make a single spey cast is it the line stick that loads the rod or is it the amount of line you have behind you? Is the line stick only used as a means of stopping the line for a change of direction. In an over hand cast you must stop the rod pause then make the forward cast. Is the line stick used for this function??
Look forward to the discusion.
Thanks
 
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-11-2001, 06:06 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: CarlDate: 10/11/2001 1:06 PM
You do need the stick on the water.  The rod won't load without the anchor even though the line is behind you because the two halves of the line are moving in opposite directions and basically cancel each other out.  Half of the line acts as slack.  With no anchor on the end the stroke is just pulling the airborne line through a turn (hence the whipcrack sound).  It's the same as trying to do the forward stroke of an overhead cast before the line is extended all the way behind you--poor loading.
 
When your leader is anchored (stick) in the water surface, your forward stroke pulls on all line between your tip and the anchor (as long as your loop is under tension and not collapsing).  Your rod will obviously load best flexing against the whole line.  Hope this helps.
 
Carl
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-11-2001, 06:22 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: CarlDate: 10/11/2001 1:22 PM
Mr. Shanks-not sure my reply was specific to what you really meant.  Here's another go, more specific to your wording: 
     The amount of line behind you (in a spey/live loop roll cast) is sufficient to load the rod if it is anchored.  The line stick is what lets you use the mass of the line behind you.  Yes, the stick is what lets you change direction, but perhaps more importantly, it loads the rod.  Without stick, the last half of the line keeps moving rearward--unloading your rod and cracking like a whip.  In an overhead cast the pause lets the airborne line straighten (remove slack) so the rod is loaded most efficiently.  In spey casting there are really two keys to that efficient rod loading.  You're right...one of them is having the right amount of "stick".  The other key is having that nice arrow/wedge pointed loop--which takes less energy to cast than a bigger, open loop.  Putting the two pieces together:  have the right amount of stick and a pointed loop and your forward cast will be almost effortless. 
Good casting and fun fishing.  Carl
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-12-2001, 06:05 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Mr.ShanksDate: 10/12/2001 1:05 PM
Thanks Carl for the response !!
In Spey casting there seems to be a need for long leaders (used with floating lines) is this mainly to do with presentation or is this needed to assist in the line stick? What is the average leader lenght?
 
Also could we open a disscussion on leaders (lenghts, materials, designs).
Thanks
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-12-2001, 11:58 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: AndyDate: 10/12/2001 6:58 PM
1 to 1.5 times rod length is my rule of thumb for leaders but actual fishing conditions would necessitate variances.   The longer length helps in anchoring and also it's great for wet fly swings.
 
I build my own leader (because I'm cheap ) and here's one of the best reference on the web:
 
 
Building your own leader allows for ajustments in length, tippet strength for turning over different sized flies and material to provide different buoyancy, flexibility, abrasive resistance, stretch-ability and visibility under water. 
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-15-2001, 07:31 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Carl H.Date: 10/15/2001 2:31 PM
 
Hi,
 
Even though it might be a bit off topic I cannot resist mentioning that for the Swedish underhand (a.k.a. the Andersson cast) the amount of anchor, stick or whatever you want to call it - always remains the same - you anchor your leader only. The amount of grains outside the rod tip stays the same, too. With the new Adapted line-line tip(leader) system for different lenghts of rods it makes casting and rod loading a breeze. Once you got the basic underhand method down you will probably never look back.....
 
Carl H.
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-15-2001, 07:49 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: J_DDate: 10/15/2001 2:49 PM
Since you mentioned the underhand cast, canyou tell me the difference between this ( underhand) and what Ed Ward refers to as the Skagit cast?
 
JD
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-16-2001, 03:08 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Carl H.Date: 10/16/2001 10:08 AM
Hi,
I've never seen the Skagit type of casting performed so I really cannot tell for sure. However, from what I read on my friend Bill van Natter's page http://home.att.net/~slowsnap/spey16.htm there does not seem to be a lot of resemblance between the two. The exception might be the "Perry poke"  which sounds a lot like the cast myself and others employ when casting the sunk line (because you use a short leader when fishing the sunk line you also need to anchor parts of your shooting head in order to load the rod properly).
I believe that the Andersson technique is older than the Skagit style and might have put some influence on the latter but I could be wrong. If you want to know what I believe to be the differences between the spey and the underhand, please check my homepage http://www.seaside.se/~sunden/page4.html. Hopefully this will clarify a few things.
Carl H.
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