All tied up in knots - Spey Pages
 
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-13-2002, 03:36 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Peter-s-cDate: 1/13/2002 12:36 AM
It's my fault.  If I hadn't been lazy, I would've prepared the two DT-5-S lines and I probably wouldn't have had as many problems  . . .
 
The Credit River averages 60' to 80' wide as it meanders through Mississauga.  As it plunges through a chute, it may narrow down to 30' or as it reaches a flat, spread out to over a 100' but for most of the time, the far bank is in peril.
 
Throwing the heavy 10' tips is no big deal for the 9 wt. but the little Lamiglas 6/7 doesn't really seem to like them.  If I'm 20' in from the bank, have affixed 15' of tip and leader, and I'm fishing an 80' section.  That doesn't leave much fly line to load the rod and lift that tip so one substitutes muscle.  Let's just say that things went from bad to worse.  My double speys kept launching the fly upstream of me; my Snap-Ts either hit the rod as the heavy tip dropped or the rod never got loaded sufficiently to get everything moving again; and we won't even begin to talk about the snake rolls.  And no, I didn't even get a single hit.
 
So this sets the problem.  Apart from getting out a single hander, does anyone have reasonable success casting on a smallish river with a light rod and weighty tips - or is this just too much to expect of the equipment and the situation?
 
Peter
 
 
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-13-2002, 03:50 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Willie GunnDate: 1/13/2002 12:50 AM
Hi Peter
Try a full sinker or intermediate european style. You just roll them up then chuck them out.
 
It is what  I usiually fish this American idea of tip is a novelty
 
 
Malcolm
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-13-2002, 05:01 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Peter-s-cDate: 1/13/2002 2:01 AM
I had a fullsink in the bag but it just doesn't work very well in most places on that river.  At one of my favourite spots, the river bottom is dotted with a few very large boulders whose tops are just inches below the surface.  The challenge is to keep the floating portion of the line above the boulders while the tip and fly sweep down, deep, and in between them.  A full sinker or my Teeny 200 would always be hung up on them.  To make life a bit more interesting, a huge, four trunked tree sweeps its branches low over the best holding water.  Obviously the combination of deeper water and big rocks makes for a great steelhead holding spot - it's just a bitch of a spot to sweep a fly through.
 
Some of the other deeper, fishy spots on the river are surrounded by very shallow water filled with lots of line snagging rocks so it's best if you can float the main body of your line over the snags while the business end goes deep.  It's classic pocket water fishing on a two-hander scale.  I fish this water OK with the 9 wt. but it's really too much rod for a river of this size - I'm forever pulling the fly off of the far bank.
 
The challenge is to find a castable setup for the 6/7 Lamiglas that will let me work the river effectively.
 
Peter
 
 
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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-13-2002, 05:16 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Peter-s-cDate: 1/13/2002 2:16 AM
Here's a crude sketch that illustrates the problem.
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-13-2002, 05:25 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: MJCDate: 1/13/2002 2:25 AM
Willie, Will you or anyone else for that matter please explain the term full sinker or intermediate european style. The european style part is what I'm interested in. Thanks
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-13-2002, 05:50 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: MJCDate: 1/13/2002 2:50 AM
Peter, You forgot to show that 10 pounder laying behind the rock.     
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-13-2002, 05:58 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Peter-s-cDate: 1/13/2002 2:58 AM
it's on the far side . . .
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-13-2002, 08:09 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Nooksack MacDate: 1/13/2002 5:09 AM
Peter, If  I've understood the physical parameters of your stream situation, your Lamiglas 6/7 needs what we on the West Coast call a "launcher" line, which is nothing more than a short-belly weight-forward line of a size several notches than what your rod is rated for.  I'd start with a WF9F.  You can test it by putting on your 9-wt. line and seeing how the Lamiglas feels with about 30 feet outside the rod tip.
   If the bottom is no deeper than your sketch indicates, you could probably fish it with an all-floating line, 8-10 feet of leader, probably with split shot near the tippet and a dense fly.  If you want to fish sink tips, then cut off the tapered front tip of a WF line, attach a braided loop, and use your 10-foot sink tips.
   Cortland sells braid-covered leadcore line by the foot, or in 30-foot heads.  I turned one of the latter into 15', 11,' and 4-foot tips with loops at all ends.  I occasionally use the 4-foot tip for situations similar to yours.
   MJC:  I believe that Willie Gunn was referring to intermediate density spey lines (Orvis markets one) which are popular on the Ponoi and other Russian salmon rivers.  Why they're the preferred line there, I don't know. 
 
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-13-2002, 05:13 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: J.R. SPEYDate: 1/13/2002 2:13 PM
Believe it or not, they also use a full sink that's about a Type III or IV. When Scientific Anglers first made their double taper lines for double-handed rods they also had a full sink. While I've never fished over there and could be wrong on this, the videos I've seen of their water shows very little in the way of rocks. That may just be because that's the best place for shooting video, but it might also be indicitive of their rivers and would explain why they don't see the disadvantages of full sinks that we do.
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-13-2002, 08:27 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Peter-s-cDate: 1/13/2002 5:27 PM
I should've thought of that.  I have short bellied lines from 6 to 10 wt. for my single handers so it would be easy to do some testing to find the right one.  My initial trial with a DT-8-F and a heavy 10' tip was so discouraging, I went to a light line and never thought of going back that route.  It makes sense as I used to use my SA WF-9-F Headstart on that river with an old Lamiglas and it worked great.
 
I think I'll tie up some weighted flies to use with some splitshot as the really heavy tips overwhelm the little rod.  That rig will also give me more of an angle from floater tip to the fly, helping in the navigation around the boulders.  Adding or subtracting splitshot will control the depth.  In some of the slower, clearer sections, I'll be able to use the DT-5 tips - they won't cause the rod any problems.
 
I know that some of the PNW rivers aren't that big and I've seem pictures of small, boulder strewn PNW rivers that are worse than the Credit so somebody had to have worked out a solution for this.
 
Thanks.
 
Peter
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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-13-2002, 10:32 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: WhistlerDate: 1/13/2002 7:32 PM
MJC, the 'european" style is to fish a full sinking line where in fact the whole fly line sinks at a continuous rate.For the most part the line is laid out across downstream and allowed to do it's thing. These lines are fished from a slooooow sinking intermediate to a type 5. I have played with these lines (mostly LOOP shooting heads) for our BC steelhead with mediocre results. Mid water obstructions(habitat) such as the aforementioned boulders caused the most chaos with the heavier sinkers. The slower stuff fishes really nice and I even played around with adding a short faster sinking tip to a full length intermediate. It is my understanding that Atlantics generally enjoy a faster swinging fly than our native steelhead. Perhaps this would explain the popularity of the eaisier-mending floating line/ sink -tip among PNW steelheaders.Brian Niska
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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-14-2002, 06:21 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: DeanDate: 1/14/2002 3:21 PM
Have you looked into the Teeny Mini-Tip seried. Floating line with a 5 foot sink tip on the end. Comes in 250-350-450-650 grains.
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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-14-2002, 11:28 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: NateDate: 1/14/2002 8:28 PM
Peter Im no expert just ask my fishing buddies) but ill add my 2 cents. remember when using sink tips that something on you leader or fly has to sink the leader at the same rate or faster then the tip its self. If you dont what will happen is that the head will sink and the partial bouyant(sp) fly will stay suspended , shure the fly will get down sooner or later but it usually will be at the end of the drift or swing, 2/3 of your presantation, your fly will be out of the "zone".
I see doing this all the time they think there fishing the bottom because they get hung ,but in reality what happens is that is that when the tip gets caught the angler pulls trying to realease the fly rather pulls the fly into the obstacle(sp) the line was stuck on, I my self like to use a full floater and heavy flies, just food for thought.....Nate
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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-14-2002, 11:32 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: NateDate: 1/14/2002 8:32 PM
second paragraph should have read : I see anglers doing this all the time.........sorry.....brain is faster then the fingers.....Nate
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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 01-15-2002, 01:54 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Peter-s-cDate: 1/14/2002 10:54 PM
About the Teeny minis - I've been thinking about making/buying 5' extra fast sink tips for those boulder situations.  The Lamiglas should handle those better and soon as I get a chance, I'll try my WF-9-F HS to see if will do the job as a "launcher."
 
Sounds like a plan . . .
 
Peter
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