WindCutter problem. - Spey Pages
 
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-14-2002, 09:25 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Dennis B.Date: 1/14/2002 5:25 AM
Hi fellow two hander casters.  I'm new to the board and glad I found you.  I hope that you can help me with my problem. 
 
I picked up a  rio windcutter 8/9/10 versi tip for my sage 9140 (1996 model) for winter steelhead.  I have had the line for some time but have not used it untill yesterday.  I thought that I was pretty proficient with a spey rod (dry line for summer fish) but I was shocked when I could not kick the line out more than 60'.  I became very frustrated and decided that my spey casting talent was less than I had thought.  It was a very humbling experience.  I decided that I needed more practice so I when out again today and it was not fun.  My cast got a little better but it was still lacking in the distance that others spey rodders where able to achieve.  I sat down and watched the other spey casters touching the other bank so I decided to find out what lines they were using.  To my suprise, they were using windcutters too.  The only difference was that they made their own sink tip to cut the cost. I asked the better caster to try my rod and after 3 minutes he gave up too.  He was not able to get a 40' cast.  Whats up?  Did I get a mismarked line?
 
Long Lines
Dennis
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-14-2002, 11:30 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: MJCDate: 1/14/2002 7:30 AM
Dennis, I am not a very good caster and I don't know if I have the answer to your problem but when I read your post some questions come to mind. What style and line weight were you using on summer fish? What line weight and rod model was the better caster that tried your rod using? Did you happen to try the rod of the better caster and if you did how did that cast for you. I have a St. Croix 14'-9/10. I think it is similar in action to your rod. For me an 8/9/10 WC was to light in weight. I did much better with a 9/10/11. I know of several people that think my 9/10/11 is to light and that I would be better off with a 10/11/12 so maybe you just need a heavier line. You could get the upgrade and go from the 585 grns that you are at now to 750 grns but you would increase your head length to 69'. You have a popular rod and there are many very good spey caster here that are familiar with it so you will probably get several answers better than mine. Also if you look at the old post on "fly talk forum" under Pacific Northwest Steelhead you can find some more good info on your question.
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-14-2002, 08:09 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: EugeneDate: 1/14/2002 4:09 PM
Dennis,
I have the same rod and line that you do, and often wonder the same thing myself. And because I took many of the comments on this board to heart I was starting to wonder if I had made dumb purchases of both the rod and the line. On Saturday, however, I took a group casting lesson in Portland. The instructors were George Cook, Mark Bachmann, and Brian Silvey. Not bad for a 6 student group! I didn't really talk to Mark, but I did get a chance to talk to both George and Brian about both my rod and line choice. They were adamant that the old 9140-4 is a sweet rod, and that the 8-9-10 Windcutter (or the Mid-Spey) is the right line for it. Niether of them really liked the Accelerator.
 
Brian especially took some time with my setup and was really booming some nice casts out there, totally effortlessly. Made me a bit envious, but it also made me feel good that my setup is capable of casting so well -- even if I'm not (yet). 
 
If you do have the 8-9-10 (if it wasn't mismarked) then maybe you should try adding or removing the middle floating section. I think George was saying to have the middle section attached when using the tips that come with the line. Hope this helps.
 
Eugene
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-14-2002, 08:34 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: texasspeyDate: 1/14/2002 4:34 PM
the pros i talk to fished that rod with the9,10,11 WC. I also did when I fished it.However it also sounds like technique is playing a role.  what I dont get is you talk about 40ft wheras the head is nearly 60ft .  mark your hinge pt and cast with it at the tip and dont change until you get thatgoing well.  regardless of line you should still be able to do that effortlessly.
beau
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-14-2002, 08:34 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Ol RichDate: 1/14/2002 4:34 PM
Dennis,
 
I have a St. Croix 14' also and am currently using a WindCutter 8/9/10.  Try removing the #2 tip when casting sink tips until you get comfortable.  Over time you can work up to adding back the #2 and also going to the up grade.  I started out with a WindCutter 7/8/9 and used this approach.  I also had a WindCutter 10/11/12 and found it too heavy for abilities. 
 
With a Type 6 sink tip I roll cast first to get the tip up then do which ever cast I want.
 
Hope this helps.
 
Rich
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-14-2002, 09:21 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Dennis B.Date: 1/14/2002 5:21 PM
Hi guys.  I would like to clarify my post about the distances.  They gentelman that I had cast my rod was able to cast the the head section making a 55-60' cast but with some difficulty.    His rod and line was a Loomis GLX with 8/9/10 windcutter custom made tip system (loop with nterchangable heads.  His partner had a newer green sage 14 footer which I'm sure that he has played with.  My point is that any good spey caster should be able to pick up any two hander and at the very least, within a few minutes figure out what the rod wants and get a fair cast if the rod and line is balanced.  The fly fisher that tried my rod could not get the rod and line to perform like it should.
 
I own 2 spey rods. Now the dry lines that I have been useing for summer fish are...
9140- SA Mastery 10/11 Salmon/Steelhead.
7136- Rio 7/8/9 Windcutter
 
Thanks again
Dennis
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-14-2002, 10:04 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: HangDogDate: 1/14/2002 6:04 PM
Dennis:

You'll notice on this site, that Rio's spey expert, Simon Gawesworth, has matched up Rio's spey line offerings with popular spey rods. Your 14', nine weight Sage is rated for either a 8/9/10 or 9/10/11 Windcutter, depending on the casting style/feel you wish to achieve/ pursue.

I would recommend that you do two things:

1. Contact Simon Gawesworth directly at www.rioproducts.com and pose your questions.
2. Obtain the Rio International Spey Casting video. Much of the instruction is provided by Simon Gawesworth. This is an excellent instructional video. Mr. Gawesworth is an exceptional caster. Hopefully, you will discern some small flaw in your stroke, such as rolling your shoulder, casting off the wrong foot, or lunging toward your target (not fully taking advantage of the rod's action, etc.) that will bring you into the hallowed league of the super casters.

Good Luck
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-14-2002, 10:18 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: MJCDate: 1/14/2002 6:18 PM
Dennis, I'm not saying the 8/9/10 WC isn't the right line for your rod as it's Simon G's first choice in that style line and I think his recommendations
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-15-2002, 01:02 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Scott KDate: 1/14/2002 9:02 PM
I am assuming you have the Sage 9140-4 Traditional Action rod as opposed to the Sage 9140-3 European action rod?
 
I think that one of your problems might also be that the timing involving casting sink tips might differ slightly from that of a dryline for Summer fish. I notice with a floating/dry line you have a bit more room for error than you do with a Sink tip.
Sink tips you have to time the stick fairly closely and if it sinks to much you will have difficulty pulling it out of the water.
 
From what I've played with, the GLX rods appear to be quite a faster action rod, similar to the Sage Euro action rods so getting dialed into a slower action rod like the Sage 9140-4 is a daunting task, at least for someone who doesn't have the ability to dial into a rod right away (IE someone who is very expierienced would have this ability), at least for the particular individual you mentioned trying your rod not casting it all that well either.
 
Also, since the Windcutter is more of a shooters line, you might want to strip the head in a bit farther and use the added weight of the sink tip in shooting the line back ou out. This will allow you an easier time in timing your cast because you'll have less line out, and you'll have to make up the distance by shooting the line a bit farther which should be possible with the added grains in the sink tip.
 
 
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-15-2002, 02:27 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: MJCDate: 1/14/2002 10:27 PM
 Taking part in this thread has made me curious as to the head weight of a 10/11 Mastery Salmon Steelhead. Does anyone know the answer? Leroy are you out there?
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-15-2002, 04:41 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: fisshmanDate: 1/15/2002 12:41 AM
You should click on to the link for Ally Gowans site for a review of lines and it has a chart that shows the weights of different lines including the mastery spey in question. 
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-15-2002, 05:11 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: MJCDate: 1/15/2002 1:11 AM
I've looked at that chart until I'm blue in the face. As far as I can tell Ally's weights are for the total line length not just the head.  Maybe I missed something in reading it, if so please tell me. By the way I clicked on Ally's sight last night and it has been changed. I couldn't find the line info that you are talking about. I have it printed out however. Ally's website list the WC 10/11F @ 1064 grns. Rio list the head @ 740 grns I assume to difference is the running line All the lines are listed as total grains. He list the line in question @ 1180 grns total @ 141' and 350 grns. for 30'. Even if you divide the 350 grns by 30' for 11.67 grns per ft and multiply that times the length of the 10/11 Mastery head @ 77' you get 899 grns. This isn't accurate when you factor in the front and rear taper. Again if I'm reading this wrong please tell me.
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-15-2002, 08:17 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Dennis B.Date: 1/15/2002 4:17 AM
Gosh Guy's...  I did not know that I had to have a degree in rocket science to use a two hander.  It's not like I can go to the local fly shop and demo a spey line to see if  I like it.  I am sure that when it's said and done, I will be a better caster.  Now catcher... thats another story.
 
Thanks for all of the help and I look forward to all of you comments and suggestions. 
 
Dennis
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-15-2002, 08:20 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: MJCDate: 1/15/2002 4:20 AM
Dennis, While I'm still leaning toward the theory that for "your casting style" you need more line weight Scott makes some valid points. Did you try the WC with the floating tip? If so how did it cast? If you didn't that's what I would do next. If you do try the floating tip I for one would very interested in your results so please post them.
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-15-2002, 09:12 AM Thread Starter
 
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Originator: Dennis B.Date: 1/15/2002 5:12 AM
GREAT IDEA MJC!!!   The next trip that I do, thats the way that I will start out.  I have been invited to work out the kinks with a nice guy by the name of Rob.  I have seen him cast and he knows how to use his spey rod.  I will give a report on my progress. Thank again Guys.
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