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Lightsaber!?!

18K views 113 replies 39 participants last post by  wannafish1 
#1 ·
Anyone try the new sage method 7126 that has been coined the light saber by deneki? Does my deathstar need a friend?!?
 
#2 ·
Two rods in the same weight and length class? Seems redundant to me (a "spare" notwithstanding), but that's just me. Now if one was a 12'6" 7wt bamboo spey rod, ...
 
#4 ·
I have owned and fished the 7126 TCX Death Star since its introduction.

Last week I had the opportunity to test cast the new 7126 Method,,,, no comparison. The Method is smooth and a very nice casting rod however, no match for the Death Star.

Regards,
FK
 
#6 ·
I listen to the music not the stereo

A friends father was the chief engineer for Harmon Kardon, the stereo company. In his house he had one big speaker and a mono amplifier. When I asked him why he didn't have a fancy HK stereo he told me "I listen to the music, not the stereo". He went on to say that he designed new stereos for people who listen to the stereos and will, therefore, buy a new one when he puts in a little this or that improvement. He could easily have been talking about the flyrod companies. Listen to the music, not the stereo.
 
#8 ·
Fished it for a week in BC. Much better rod than the TCX IMO, retians the authority of the TCX while actually being a 7 weight. Much friendlier. 525-55 skagit and 480--510 scandi worked very well.
Does this mean you think the TCX is not actually a 7 weight? I have heard others allude to this as well.
 
#11 ·
Tcx

My TCX casts the same line as my Beulah Classic 12'7-7/8. 450 Compact scandi, 460-6wt Tactical steelhead, 510 Skagit compact, 530 gr Spey Evolution... I could not imagine trying to bog it down with more mass but than again rod feel & load is a personal preference.
 
#12 ·
Different strokes and all that. I like a pretty light load and I thought the Deathstar was money with a 525 skagit. I also used a 510 and liked that.

I often wonder why it matters to casters whether a rod is a 7wt or an 8wt. I don't think the fish gives a rat's behind. Is a 7 more sporting then an 8? I think for many fish it's more damaging, but then we're back to the different strokes deal.
 
#13 ·
Different strokes and all that. I like a pretty light load and I thought the Deathstar was money with a 525 skagit. I also used a 510 and liked that.

I often wonder why it matters to casters whether a rod is a 7wt or an 8wt.
I suspect it's because we're looking for some sort of "standard" or benchmark or optimum that we can rely on...maybe eliminate as a factor as to why we aren't all jedi.

As someone still in the learning stages, I want to think that the engineer who designed the taper knew what he was doing...so I don't have to second guess him. That way I can concentrate on what I'm doing wrong and not whether a heavier line or a different action would cast better. I know that there is such a thing as a grain window but somehow I've got to believe that there is "method to the madness", so to speak. I've got to believe that the engineer had something in mind.

I guess I'm hard headed or "just a dumb shoemaker" but in my mind even if you can drive a screw with a hammer, it doesn't mean you should.

That said, I wonder...don't think I've ever seen it quantified...what grain window comprises a 7wt and what comprises and 8wt?
 
#14 ·
I suspect it's because we're looking for some sort of "standard" or benchmark or optimum that we can rely on...maybe eliminate as a factor as to why we aren't all jedi.
I wish you well on your journey. You certainly aren't the first to seek a standard and you won't be the last, but after using two handers for 16yrs and selling them for 11yrs I'll say your search for the magic standard will be mostly fruitless in the end. You may well find the standard for "you" but your standard will not work for everyone. There are just to many variables between casters.


I've got to believe that the engineer had something in mind.
I will add this. The engineers do have something in mind, but since they are humans like the rest of us it's not always the same something.
 
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#16 ·
I wish you well on your journey. You certainly aren't the first to seek a standard and you won't be the last, but after using two handers for 16yrs and selling them for 11yrs I'll say your search for the magic standard will be mostly fruitless in the end. You may well find the standard for "you" but your standard will not work for everyone. There are just to many variables between casters.

I will add this. The engineers do have something in mind, but since they are humans like the rest of us it's not always the same something.
I understand and I defer to your expertise and experience in that regard. Maybe I come from a different time frame though--I've been flyfishing exclusively for over 50 years...second season with 2H rods (again, a greenhorn, no doubt)...and when I got into it, if a rod was sold and labeled as a 7wt you could pretty much count on a 7wt line being a good fit. And you didn't have to wonder what 7wt meant or if the engineers really meant 7-1/2wt or a light 8wt or what. So you bought a line and that was it. You focused on your own deficiencies and either learned or went back to bait.

Currently the labels--the way rods are rated--make no sense if they are just amorphous and phantasmal guesses. Certainly the line rating system--7wt, 8wt, etc.--is about as useful as rubber soles on wading boots.

They might as well put a label on the rod that says "Hey! just use what ever feels good"...even if practically speaking the tyro needs to buy at least three different head weights to have any hope of knowing whether the rod will work for him or not. (Did I mention I have some skagit heads for sale...at about half what I paid for them?)

Rating a rod for grain weights is a lot better, I'll admit, but even there, in my most cynical moments I suspect it is almost a matter of "political correctness" masquerading as marketing (or vice versa)--let's make everyone...even the people who can't be bothered to learn to cast well...feel like this rod was a good buy and a better fit.

Don't mind me...I'm just venting. It's just so confusing. 50 plus years flyfishing and the hardest thing I have ever done in that regard was not teach myself to cast a fishable length of flyline without a rod (which I did) but how to put together a balanced 2H rig. Like Scott Howell says in his recent video--the object should be to make it easier and more enjoyable for people to understand, not harder.
 
#17 ·
DWFII,

All graphite single handed rods will cast nicely plus or minus one line weight wrt the manuf. number label. I like to underline many trout rods for faster line speed. Many like to over line their rods when casting heavy flies in windy conditions.

The Two Handed rods all have a very wide grain window of lines that are comfortable to cast. Which line weight is correct? The line you prefer is the correct weight.
The Sage 7126 TCX will be comfortable for most casters with lines that are typically heavier than the majority of 12'6" 7wt rods, some call it a 7/8 wt and other a 8wt with 7wt label. The rod is a fantastic casting rod if you like the action and have good timing. I like a Scandi of 480gr-510gr range with the rod, this is slightly heavier than the typical 7wt with 450gr line.

There is no right or wrong answer to line wt. vs. numbers on the rod blank by the manuf. Even the new labels with grains are suspect. One very popular TH rod is labeled 350-450gr,,,, I like it best with 300gr Scandi lines.

Regards,
FK
 
#18 ·
Well said Fred. One man's 7 is another man's 8 or maybe a 9 and it's a fruitless search to tie two handed rods to one line weight for all users, and contrary to what many believe things aren't all that much better in the single hand game.

A person can buy a 5 wt but then if he wants to go crick fishing he loads it with a 6 cause he's casting short. Next week he's lake fishing and might opt for a 4 cause he's casting long. Next month our angler goes to the salt for some surf fishing and loads his 8wt with an 8wt Outbound which weighs 330grns and in the AFTMA's world that's an 11wt.

All of the above are common scenarios in today's fly fishing world.

DWFII I used to agonize over this subject the same as you seem to be. It leads to nowhere but Maalox. Now I find a line that fits whatever rod I want to fish and go on with my life. After the starting point the numbers can blur but if the line is going out to my satisfaction then that's all that matters.
 
#21 ·
DWFII I used to agonize over this subject the same as you seem to be. It leads to nowhere but Maalox. Now I find a line that fits whatever rod I want to fish and go on with my life. After the starting point the numbers can blur but if the line is going out to my satisfaction then that's all that matters.
Not arguing Poppy, but you've a lot more lines to choose from than someone like me has. And if, like me, you're semi-retired you don't have the resources to buy a line, try it and then toss it in the closet. Much less the points to get away with it if SWMBO finds out.

I don't hesitate to acknowledge your generosity--you have offered to send me lines to try. I guess I'm just funny that way--I don't want to put you to the trouble and expense (and yes, I know that at least on one level you're not losing money...I have a business myself) and I don't like to take advantage of people casually. Part of that, of course, is that I don't spend 300 days a year on the river. If I got a demo line from you I'd have to have it several weeks to even have the chance to fish it for an hour or so.

That said, I'd be emailing you right now for a demo Rio Max except the next time I will be on the river (the Rogue) will be the 19th through the 21st and am hoping to try one out at Two Hands.

Beyond that,from the people I talk to and the emails I get, I'm not alone in my confusion or my frustration. Even the flyshop owners don't seem to have any real certainty...and that makes their advice (any advice) slightly suspect.

Anyway, believe me I know and understand...intellectually at least...that it all comes down to "different strokes" (see, I even cliche-d it). But it's hard for a trainee to even know what his stroke is until he's cast a dozen different rods, each with a different action, and each with a half dozen lines weights for, like you, a dozen years or so.

It's a catch-22--the permutations are mind-blowing.
 
#19 ·
A wise old gentleman once told me " All this New Fangled Gear" is designed to catch "Fishermen".......me thinks he may be correct "in a lot of cases":chuckle::chuckle:
 
#20 ·
A wise old gentleman once told me " All this New Fangled Gear" is designed to catch "Fishermen".
I think your wise old fisherman was right on the money, but in the good old days that many of us lament as being gone things were pretty much the same just on a smaller scale. We live in a great age for great tackle.
 
#22 ·
They might as well put a label on the rod that says "Hey! just use what ever feels good"...even if practically speaking the tyro needs to buy at least three different head weights to have any hope of knowing whether the rod will work for him or not. (Did I mention I have some skagit heads for sale...at about half what I paid for them?)
Well I can tell you that the system you describe above works pretty damned good but the part about the tyro having to buy 3 heads is BS as there are many shops that have demo heads available and lots of other places to try lines out for little to nothing in cost.

In you case DWFII I offered to send you demo heads on one occasion that I remember and you turned me down.
 
#24 ·
Even the flyshop owners don't seem to have any real certainty..
The fly shop owners can only have as much certainty as befits their personal experience with a given rod/line and that of anglers close to them that they have discussed it with. There is no way in Hell that a fly shop owner, or anyone else for that matter can know how any potential casters from anywhere will want to load the rod. It's not happening now, it wasn't happening 10/12 years ago when some of us discussed this same subject, and I don't think it will happen ever in the way you envision it.
 
#28 · (Edited)
I'm sure none of this will pan out as I hope or wish. Very little in life ever turns out the way we envision it. And for all of that I would let this discussion go except...except...what I'm getting from these responses is that no one wants to acknowledge the elephant in the room and I'm kind of out of line to even mention it.

What I do know...because I was there...is that 25-30 years ago if I went in to a fly shop and bought a 7 wt rod the fly shop owner would have confidently set me up with a 7 wt line. It would never have occurred to him to offer me an 8wt or a 6 wt, nevermind a 9wt. It never would have occurred to either of us to wonder about my casting stroke and whether I like to feel the rod bend all the way to the grip or not.

Maybe all that was short-sighted and ignorant but it never occurred to anyone at the time...at least I never ran across it...that getting the fly out there anyway you could was the optimal scenario. Perhaps because taken to the logical extreme...it could be argued, IOW...putting a lead head fly on the end of some 15# mono and attaching that to some mono running line is also "getting it out there any way you can." You either learned to cast a fly rod the right way...within a certain parameters...or you went back to flinging hardware.

And you know what? In all those years, despite differences in rod actions, despite differing materials used in making rods, despite different techniques for casting a flyline (like those taught in the pits at the Golden Gate Casting Club), it seemed to work out well...for everybody. Looking back it seems to me that it was the mechanics of the cast and the engineering/design of the rods and lines that were the foundations of the cast not the energy or the nature or the height or the sensibility of the fisherman.

Guys, I'm fine with there being no right way (I'll figure it out, eventually). We live in a 256 grey scale world today...both practically and ethically. The problem with that, however, is that without some reliable, informed, logical guidance, it's too dern hard to see the edge of the cliff until you walk off it.

But if everyone has a different stroke and they're all valid and no one line weight can be certain to be perfect for anyone, then why label a rod at all? Or, again, why not just say "do what feels good" and leave it at that?

Why not just come out and say it--"no one really knows"?

As my old pap used to say "honesty is the best policy."
 
#35 ·
But if everyone has a different stroke and they're all valid and no one line weight can be certain to be perfect for anyone, then why label a rod at all? Or, again, why not just say "do what feels good" and leave it at that?

Why not just come out and say it--"no one really knows"?

"
Please forgive me but I'm really not sure what the problem is here.

When I bought my TCX 7126, I didn't have to spend a ton of money trying to find the right skagit head for it. I didn't think it was a really great big hassle or expense to:

a) Ask a few people what skagit to buy....including the thoughts of the people who sold it to me as well as those who fish the rod. I got a answers of 510, 525, 540, 550, 570, and 575.

b) Check the Rio "spey line recommendations", website where I got a recommendation of 525-575.....hmmmmmm ....somethings fishy....

c) Check the Airflo "Spey Compatability Chart", where I found that (Oh my Gosh) they suggested a 540!

Now Come On!
I didn't have to buy ALL of these lines !!!!!

... I bet you can even guess what I bought.
(hint...I went for the middle of the road)

Yup.... I bought a 540... worked great. Would a 510 work? Absolutely, but so does the 540.

IF I was to buy a 7126 Method, (which I won't 'cause I'm happy with the rods I have), I would really like to think that I would follow the same process.

Poppy is absolutely right. There is no need to spend a ton of money trying to find the right line. All you have to do is ask, use your head and a little common sense, and you will get a line that works just fine.
 
#31 ·
Practice

A person does not have to go on an expensive fishing trip to get proficient with his/her tackle. Familiarize yourself on any body of water near your home to see what YOU like. Tackle dealers offer free demos as an act of goodwill and to hopefully promote PR with their customers. Trying 3 lines is cheap when typically its $2.00 in USPS fees to return. Before a trip to a Steelhead riverone should be familiar with their preferred tackle set up. One should not buy a new Bow and a dozen arrows and go fling them at anything that walks. Part of respecting our quarry is investing time in learning everything about them and taking time practicing our presentation, I feel that is an old school, honorable way to be a sporting angler. With all due respect and kindest regards, there are no short cuts or "tell me what works best" advice in this game. The time we invest is enough reward having these fish swim in our imagination and dreams. When a fish actually grabs our fly that is a bonus! Best wishes on the journey.
 
#34 ·
DWFII, Nothing I have written in this discussion has been personal toward you. You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but when you post that the only way for a new caster to get dialed in is to spend a lot of money on heads then you are spreading misinformation, and nothing could be further from the truth.

As to the elephant in the room you are just tilting at windmills. What you are wanting is for a all rod designers to think exactly alike and that ain't going to happen unless all of them go out of business except one.
 
#36 ·
DWFII, Nothing I have written in this discussion has been personal toward you. You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but when you post that the only way for a new caster to get dialed in is to spend a lot of money on heads then you are spreading misinformation, and nothing could be further from the truth.

As to the elephant in the room you are just tilting at windmills. What you are wanting is for a all rod designers to think exactly alike and that ain't going to happen unless all of them go out of business except one.

Poppy,

If you are referring to my question question in post #23...I was asking if you thought, by some odd chance, that my turning your generous offer down was personal...if perhaps you thought it was a slap in the face.

It never crossed my mind that your remarks in general were personal towards me.

But I have to say this...with all due respect...you say I am entitled to my opinions (and they are opinions, not certain knowledge) but you don't really seem to mean it.

I am a new caster...at least with 2H rods.

And as I've said many times, it has been hard and relatively expensive for me to get a handle on casting a 2H rod. And I've taken lessons with an IFFF certified casting instructor.

My opinions, like most people's opinions, are based on experience...the experience of it being expensive and difficult...that and the paucity of reliable consistent information/advice that is available. So if that's my experience and you dismiss it as "BS" or "misinformation," then obviously I'm not really entitled to my opinions.

I suspect it's all where you stand...if you're semi-retired, coming to the game late and hoping to get a handle on 2H casting before you get too old, too incontinent, too forgetful, too unsteady on your feet to wait for the bus while freezing your cojones off in a "frigid river"--in something less than 16 years, IOW--it looks a lot more daunting than if you started when you were 40 and had a full fly shop of rods and lines to experiment with, and a river at your doorstep.

Don't get me wrong, I read every word you post, I take it "under advisement" and give it considerable thought. I even believe it to some extent...in general.

But even the truest, most well meaning answer of 'it's all about personal preference' (as if the rod designers really didn't have anything in mind) is still no answer at all.
 
#38 ·
Nothing personal, ever. Should you ever choose to visit the Clearwater you would be welcome on my porch or at my table (if I have my fly tying mess cleaned up).

We are all looking for the truth about all this two handed stuff and the present discussion has a long history on Spey Pages. My friend SSpey and I plus some others had something like this same discussion many years ago. While there has been some improvement nothing has really changed and if I haven't mentioned it yet I don't think it ever will. There are just to many variables between different rod designers and different casters.
 
#41 ·
Nothing personal, ever. Should you ever choose to visit the Clearwater you would be welcome on my porch or at my table (if I have my fly tying mess cleaned up).

We are all looking for the truth about all this two handed stuff and the present discussion has a long history on Spey Pages. My friend SSpey and I plus some others had something like this same discussion many years ago. While there has been some improvement nothing has really changed and if I haven't mentioned it yet I don't think it ever will. There are just to many variables between different rod designers and different casters.
Thank you. I appreciate that.

I guess that's why this issue is so difficult for some. You've all had this discussion long ago, time out of mind, and ad nauseum.

But as someone who administers a discussion forum myself, maybe it's useful to remember that some of us weren't here when it was all hashed out.
 
#42 ·
I would think with the amount of time you spent with single handers you would be aware of the amazing capabilities of graphite. You always cast your single handers with the designated line size?
Yes, I did.

And I used to fish and hang with some pretty well respected people in my little local the flyfishing world at the time--Dave McNeese, Bob Guard (who started and ran the Caddis Fly in Eugene), Jack Decius of the Golden Gate Casting Club, and, by proxy, Dan Callahan (I fished with Roger Stratman almost every night and he was a good friend of Dan Callahan) . I taught flytying and fly casting for The Central Oregon Flyfishers.

Subscribed to all the Flyfishing magazines, etc.

And never once did I ever run across the notion of using anything but the designated line. Nor, and maybe most importantly, did I ever experience any problems with my cast following that advice. It just wasn't an issue.

BTW is 550 grain certifiably equivalent to an 8wt?
 
#45 ·
I think the single hander rods and lines have gotten more confusing than the two handers. Try and find a line today that is actually in the grain wt of the given class. Most are advertised as heavier and usually are heavier than advertised. This was done to work with the faster rods of today. So is the rod a 7wt or an 8wt. I guess what they print on the rod is right if what they print on the line is right. Well maybe not if you go back to what is specked for that weight.
The grain window is much easier. Start heavy and cut off a little if it is too much.

Russell
 
#46 ·
huh?

:confused::confused::confused::confused:....

Here's an option...
Buy three used lines, a 7/8-8/9-9/10 delta, used. You will spend less than a bengie on all three and will cover the grain weights of probably 99% of the two handed rods you will ever own. Boom, you are in the game, you'll have them all at your disposal.
If you are wanting the simplicity of single handed casting equipment in double handed rods and lines, I'd suggest you get outta the two handed game now, befor you invest any more denero, 'cause that aint gonna happen...
The two handed game aint much at all like the single handed game, and that's a good thing for most guys who take it up ...
I have the TCX 7126, it's a seven weight to me ( w/ plenty of balls to be considered an 8 wt.), but not to others. Who cares, and who cares what number is on it. Go cast the lines and find out what your rod is for you , and how you like it to behave depending on how much you load it up or don't load it up...
You are obsessing way too much on this number designation deal, many of us have in the beginning, you are not alone...
Just learn to cast, it will all make sense in the end, but you have to put in the effort to get good at it, and as I said befor, that's a huge commitment, and can't be accomplished by bang'n keys on your lap top-;)
 
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