Lightsaber!?! - Page 3 - Spey Pages
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post #31 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 04:12 PM
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Practice

A person does not have to go on an expensive fishing trip to get proficient with his/her tackle. Familiarize yourself on any body of water near your home to see what YOU like. Tackle dealers offer free demos as an act of goodwill and to hopefully promote PR with their customers. Trying 3 lines is cheap when typically its $2.00 in USPS fees to return. Before a trip to a Steelhead riverone should be familiar with their preferred tackle set up. One should not buy a new Bow and a dozen arrows and go fling them at anything that walks. Part of respecting our quarry is investing time in learning everything about them and taking time practicing our presentation, I feel that is an old school, honorable way to be a sporting angler. With all due respect and kindest regards, there are no short cuts or "tell me what works best" advice in this game. The time we invest is enough reward having these fish swim in our imagination and dreams. When a fish actually grabs our fly that is a bonus! Best wishes on the journey.
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post #32 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by SkagitMiester View Post

Fred- when you say the Method wont replace the TCX- (7wt) are you saying it lacks the raw power of the TCX?

How do I determine a correct line wt for my personal casting style.

Have my partner stand along side the rod and watch the bending when launching the forward cast. If the rod bends only in the upper 1/3, I believe the line is too light. If it bends into the middle and slightly below,,, that is the line I like best. If the line is too heavy,,, the rod will cast it however, watch the outgoing forward cast lower loop,,,, it will drop or open up and plow early in the cast and not give you the line speed and distance,,,, with your individual casting style/stroke.

We have 5 people in my fishing group that own the 7126 TCX,, three like a Scandi of 510gr,,, two of us change up,,, Scandi 485gr for max line speed and distance and Scandi 510gr for slower more comfortable casting. We do not use the rod for Skagit lines,,, that type of line goes to the new Sage ONE or Z-Axis rods.

The 7126 Method was tested with Scandi 450gr & 485gr, to me it liked the heavier line but it was very nice with both. The Method flexed deeper into the rod blank wrt the TCX,, less reserve power for "getting on the cast" for that additional distance in the wind,,, the TCX has more power = yes.
To confuse the issue, I may test the 8126 Method with Scandi 485gr and 510gr against the 7126 TCX,, may be surprised at the results.

I do not consider the TCX designs to be very stiff or fast action,,, they are just slightly less flexible into the lower 1/3. They do require better timing to gain the maximum performance.

Personally I like how the Method rods cast and will most likely purchase a 6126, wish they made a 5119 Method.

Regards,
FK
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post #33 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 07:12 PM
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Have my partner stand along side the rod and watch the bending when launching the forward cast. If the rod bends only in the upper 1/3, I believe the line is too light. If it bends into the middle and slightly below,,, that is the line I like best. If the line is too heavy,,, the rod will cast it however, watch the outgoing forward cast lower loop,,,, it will drop or open up and plow early in the cast and not give you the line speed and distance,,,, with your individual casting style/stroke.


Regards,
FK
Fred,

You must be a very good teacher. I like the way your explanations cut right to the heart of the matter.

Everything you post here has struck me as worth paying close attention to.

I wish you lived in Oregon...I'd take lessons from you tomorrow.

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post #34 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 08:34 PM
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DWFII, Nothing I have written in this discussion has been personal toward you. You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but when you post that the only way for a new caster to get dialed in is to spend a lot of money on heads then you are spreading misinformation, and nothing could be further from the truth.

As to the elephant in the room you are just tilting at windmills. What you are wanting is for a all rod designers to think exactly alike and that ain't going to happen unless all of them go out of business except one.

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How you get the line out and fishing is personal preference so as long as it works and is easy no one should care but the caster. MSB
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post #35 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 09:13 PM
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But if everyone has a different stroke and they're all valid and no one line weight can be certain to be perfect for anyone, then why label a rod at all? Or, again, why not just say "do what feels good" and leave it at that?

Why not just come out and say it--"no one really knows"?

"
Please forgive me but I'm really not sure what the problem is here.

When I bought my TCX 7126, I didn't have to spend a ton of money trying to find the right skagit head for it. I didn't think it was a really great big hassle or expense to:

a) Ask a few people what skagit to buy....including the thoughts of the people who sold it to me as well as those who fish the rod. I got a answers of 510, 525, 540, 550, 570, and 575.

b) Check the Rio "spey line recommendations", website where I got a recommendation of 525-575.....hmmmmmm ....somethings fishy....

c) Check the Airflo "Spey Compatability Chart", where I found that (Oh my Gosh) they suggested a 540!

Now Come On!
I didn't have to buy ALL of these lines !!!!!

... I bet you can even guess what I bought.
(hint...I went for the middle of the road)

Yup.... I bought a 540... worked great. Would a 510 work? Absolutely, but so does the 540.

IF I was to buy a 7126 Method, (which I won't 'cause I'm happy with the rods I have), I would really like to think that I would follow the same process.

Poppy is absolutely right. There is no need to spend a ton of money trying to find the right line. All you have to do is ask, use your head and a little common sense, and you will get a line that works just fine.
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post #36 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 09:23 PM
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DWFII, Nothing I have written in this discussion has been personal toward you. You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but when you post that the only way for a new caster to get dialed in is to spend a lot of money on heads then you are spreading misinformation, and nothing could be further from the truth.

As to the elephant in the room you are just tilting at windmills. What you are wanting is for a all rod designers to think exactly alike and that ain't going to happen unless all of them go out of business except one.

Poppy,

If you are referring to my question question in post #23...I was asking if you thought, by some odd chance, that my turning your generous offer down was personal...if perhaps you thought it was a slap in the face.

It never crossed my mind that your remarks in general were personal towards me.

But I have to say this...with all due respect...you say I am entitled to my opinions (and they are opinions, not certain knowledge) but you don't really seem to mean it.

I am a new caster...at least with 2H rods.

And as I've said many times, it has been hard and relatively expensive for me to get a handle on casting a 2H rod. And I've taken lessons with an IFFF certified casting instructor.

My opinions, like most people's opinions, are based on experience...the experience of it being expensive and difficult...that and the paucity of reliable consistent information/advice that is available. So if that's my experience and you dismiss it as "BS" or "misinformation," then obviously I'm not really entitled to my opinions.

I suspect it's all where you stand...if you're semi-retired, coming to the game late and hoping to get a handle on 2H casting before you get too old, too incontinent, too forgetful, too unsteady on your feet to wait for the bus while freezing your cojones off in a "frigid river"--in something less than 16 years, IOW--it looks a lot more daunting than if you started when you were 40 and had a full fly shop of rods and lines to experiment with, and a river at your doorstep.

Don't get me wrong, I read every word you post, I take it "under advisement" and give it considerable thought. I even believe it to some extent...in general.

But even the truest, most well meaning answer of 'it's all about personal preference' (as if the rod designers really didn't have anything in mind) is still no answer at all.

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post #37 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 09:31 PM
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Jeez. Then just get an 8wt rod and put a 550 skagit on it. It'll work.
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post #38 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 09:37 PM
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Nothing personal, ever. Should you ever choose to visit the Clearwater you would be welcome on my porch or at my table (if I have my fly tying mess cleaned up).

We are all looking for the truth about all this two handed stuff and the present discussion has a long history on Spey Pages. My friend SSpey and I plus some others had something like this same discussion many years ago. While there has been some improvement nothing has really changed and if I haven't mentioned it yet I don't think it ever will. There are just to many variables between different rod designers and different casters.

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How you get the line out and fishing is personal preference so as long as it works and is easy no one should care but the caster. MSB
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post #39 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by The Duck View Post
b) Check the Rio "spey line recommendations", website where I got a recommendation of 525-575.....hmmmmmm ....somethings fishy....

c) Check the Airflo "Spey Compatability Chart", where I found that (Oh my Gosh) they suggested a 540!

Now Come On!
I didn't have to buy ALL of these lines !!!!!

... I bet you can even guess what I bought.
(hint...I went for the middle of the road)

Yup.... I bought a 540... worked great. Would a 510 work? Absolutely, but so does the 540.

IF I was to buy a 7126 Method, (which I won't 'cause I'm happy with the rods I have), I would really like to think that I would follow the same process.

Poppy is absolutely right. There is no need to spend a ton of money trying to find the right line. All you have to do is ask, use your head and a little common sense, and you will get a line that works just fine.
Well, that's what I did too. But if you've been paying attention (please don't read anything untoward in that) that's never the first, second or last recommendation given to people asking about how to pair a line with a rod.

Fact is, that's precisely what this whole thread is about--are the recommended line ratings at Rio and/or Airflo correct? Approximate? Close enough for government work? Or wholly subjective?

When folks say that a rod designed to cast a 7wt is really better with an 8wt...nevermind what the designer said or intended...then what? Where is common sense? Where does the truth, or at least a certain authority/legitimacy, lie?

Common sense would say that if you follow the engineers' recommendations you can't go wrong, in fact, the likelihood is that you'll get it right every time.

But that's not what I'm hearing or reading.

Are you?

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post #40 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 09:41 PM
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I would think with the amount of time you spent with single handers you would be aware of the amazing capabilities of graphite. You always cast your single handers with the designated line size?
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post #41 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 09:42 PM
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Nothing personal, ever. Should you ever choose to visit the Clearwater you would be welcome on my porch or at my table (if I have my fly tying mess cleaned up).

We are all looking for the truth about all this two handed stuff and the present discussion has a long history on Spey Pages. My friend SSpey and I plus some others had something like this same discussion many years ago. While there has been some improvement nothing has really changed and if I haven't mentioned it yet I don't think it ever will. There are just to many variables between different rod designers and different casters.
Thank you. I appreciate that.

I guess that's why this issue is so difficult for some. You've all had this discussion long ago, time out of mind, and ad nauseum.

But as someone who administers a discussion forum myself, maybe it's useful to remember that some of us weren't here when it was all hashed out.

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post #42 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 09:48 PM
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I would think with the amount of time you spent with single handers you would be aware of the amazing capabilities of graphite. You always cast your single handers with the designated line size?
Yes, I did.

And I used to fish and hang with some pretty well respected people in my little local the flyfishing world at the time--Dave McNeese, Bob Guard (who started and ran the Caddis Fly in Eugene), Jack Decius of the Golden Gate Casting Club, and, by proxy, Dan Callahan (I fished with Roger Stratman almost every night and he was a good friend of Dan Callahan) . I taught flytying and fly casting for The Central Oregon Flyfishers.

Subscribed to all the Flyfishing magazines, etc.

And never once did I ever run across the notion of using anything but the designated line. Nor, and maybe most importantly, did I ever experience any problems with my cast following that advice. It just wasn't an issue.

BTW is 550 grain certifiably equivalent to an 8wt?

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post #43 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 09:49 PM
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Poppy,

I am a new caster...at least with 2H rods.

And as I've said many times, it has been hard and relatively expensive for me to get a handle on casting a 2H rod. And I've taken lessons with an IFFF certified casting instructor.

My opinions, like most people's opinions, are based on experience...the experience of it being expensive and difficult...
I think any person fairly new to this game would agree with that!

It's REALLY difficult, It really is. It takes years to learn, and lots and lots of practice.

And It will be expensive to buy a new rod reel and line. Regardless.

I really don't think this could be lessened however by the industry. There is a ton of great information to get people started and on the right track at a reasonable price.

But that doesn't make the 2 handed game easy by any stretch....

If you take up this you are just going to have to spend a lot of time on the water....
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post #44 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 09:58 PM
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Well, that's what I did too. But if you've been paying attention (please don't read anything untoward in that) that's never the first, second or last recommendation given to people asking about how to pair a line with a rod.

Fact is, that's precisely what this whole thread is about--are the recommended line ratings at Rio and/or Airflo correct? Approximate? Close enough for government work? Or wholly subjective?

When folks say that a rod designed to cast a 7wt is really better with an 8wt...nevermind what the designer said or intended...then what? Where is common sense? Where does the truth, or at least a certain authority/legitimacy, lie?

Common sense would say that if you follow the engineers' recommendations you can't go wrong, in fact, the likelihood is that you'll get it right every time.

But that's not what I'm hearing or reading.

Are you?
I just didn't seem to have your problem when i started...at least not with buying a set up. I certainly shared your challenge with the difficulty of the technique...!

I think that the recommendations are pretty close... Close enough. Certainly close enough to get a beginner on the right track. Absolutely.

And, with respect, if you are fairly new to 2 handed casting.... and you are having trouble with a setup, it is almost certainly not the set up ..
This is a much more complex game than the single handed casting game....

that's why it's special.
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post #45 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 10:00 PM
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I think the single hander rods and lines have gotten more confusing than the two handers. Try and find a line today that is actually in the grain wt of the given class. Most are advertised as heavier and usually are heavier than advertised. This was done to work with the faster rods of today. So is the rod a 7wt or an 8wt. I guess what they print on the rod is right if what they print on the line is right. Well maybe not if you go back to what is specked for that weight.
The grain window is much easier. Start heavy and cut off a little if it is too much.

Russell
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