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post #16 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-07-2013, 11:56 PM
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I wish you well on your journey. You certainly aren't the first to seek a standard and you won't be the last, but after using two handers for 16yrs and selling them for 11yrs I'll say your search for the magic standard will be mostly fruitless in the end. You may well find the standard for "you" but your standard will not work for everyone. There are just to many variables between casters.

I will add this. The engineers do have something in mind, but since they are humans like the rest of us it's not always the same something.
I understand and I defer to your expertise and experience in that regard. Maybe I come from a different time frame though--I've been flyfishing exclusively for over 50 years...second season with 2H rods (again, a greenhorn, no doubt)...and when I got into it, if a rod was sold and labeled as a 7wt you could pretty much count on a 7wt line being a good fit. And you didn't have to wonder what 7wt meant or if the engineers really meant 7-1/2wt or a light 8wt or what. So you bought a line and that was it. You focused on your own deficiencies and either learned or went back to bait.

Currently the labels--the way rods are rated--make no sense if they are just amorphous and phantasmal guesses. Certainly the line rating system--7wt, 8wt, etc.--is about as useful as rubber soles on wading boots.

They might as well put a label on the rod that says "Hey! just use what ever feels good"...even if practically speaking the tyro needs to buy at least three different head weights to have any hope of knowing whether the rod will work for him or not. (Did I mention I have some skagit heads for sale...at about half what I paid for them?)

Rating a rod for grain weights is a lot better, I'll admit, but even there, in my most cynical moments I suspect it is almost a matter of "political correctness" masquerading as marketing (or vice versa)--let's make everyone...even the people who can't be bothered to learn to cast well...feel like this rod was a good buy and a better fit.

Don't mind me...I'm just venting. It's just so confusing. 50 plus years flyfishing and the hardest thing I have ever done in that regard was not teach myself to cast a fishable length of flyline without a rod (which I did) but how to put together a balanced 2H rig. Like Scott Howell says in his recent video--the object should be to make it easier and more enjoyable for people to understand, not harder.

Tight Lines & Dry Waders--DWFII
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post #17 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 12:15 AM
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DWFII,

All graphite single handed rods will cast nicely plus or minus one line weight wrt the manuf. number label. I like to underline many trout rods for faster line speed. Many like to over line their rods when casting heavy flies in windy conditions.

The Two Handed rods all have a very wide grain window of lines that are comfortable to cast. Which line weight is correct? The line you prefer is the correct weight.
The Sage 7126 TCX will be comfortable for most casters with lines that are typically heavier than the majority of 12'6" 7wt rods, some call it a 7/8 wt and other a 8wt with 7wt label. The rod is a fantastic casting rod if you like the action and have good timing. I like a Scandi of 480gr-510gr range with the rod, this is slightly heavier than the typical 7wt with 450gr line.

There is no right or wrong answer to line wt. vs. numbers on the rod blank by the manuf. Even the new labels with grains are suspect. One very popular TH rod is labeled 350-450gr,,,, I like it best with 300gr Scandi lines.

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post #18 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 01:56 AM
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Well said Fred. One man's 7 is another man's 8 or maybe a 9 and it's a fruitless search to tie two handed rods to one line weight for all users, and contrary to what many believe things aren't all that much better in the single hand game.

A person can buy a 5 wt but then if he wants to go crick fishing he loads it with a 6 cause he's casting short. Next week he's lake fishing and might opt for a 4 cause he's casting long. Next month our angler goes to the salt for some surf fishing and loads his 8wt with an 8wt Outbound which weighs 330grns and in the AFTMA's world that's an 11wt.

All of the above are common scenarios in today's fly fishing world.

DWFII I used to agonize over this subject the same as you seem to be. It leads to nowhere but Maalox. Now I find a line that fits whatever rod I want to fish and go on with my life. After the starting point the numbers can blur but if the line is going out to my satisfaction then that's all that matters.

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How you get the line out and fishing is personal preference so as long as it works and is easy no one should care but the caster. MSB
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post #19 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 07:29 AM
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Exclamation

A wise old gentleman once told me " All this New Fangled Gear" is designed to catch "Fishermen".......me thinks he may be correct "in a lot of cases"
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post #20 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 10:53 AM
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A wise old gentleman once told me " All this New Fangled Gear" is designed to catch "Fishermen".
I think your wise old fisherman was right on the money, but in the good old days that many of us lament as being gone things were pretty much the same just on a smaller scale. We live in a great age for great tackle.

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How you get the line out and fishing is personal preference so as long as it works and is easy no one should care but the caster. MSB
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post #21 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 10:56 AM
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DWFII I used to agonize over this subject the same as you seem to be. It leads to nowhere but Maalox. Now I find a line that fits whatever rod I want to fish and go on with my life. After the starting point the numbers can blur but if the line is going out to my satisfaction then that's all that matters.
Not arguing Poppy, but you've a lot more lines to choose from than someone like me has. And if, like me, you're semi-retired you don't have the resources to buy a line, try it and then toss it in the closet. Much less the points to get away with it if SWMBO finds out.

I don't hesitate to acknowledge your generosity--you have offered to send me lines to try. I guess I'm just funny that way--I don't want to put you to the trouble and expense (and yes, I know that at least on one level you're not losing money...I have a business myself) and I don't like to take advantage of people casually. Part of that, of course, is that I don't spend 300 days a year on the river. If I got a demo line from you I'd have to have it several weeks to even have the chance to fish it for an hour or so.

That said, I'd be emailing you right now for a demo Rio Max except the next time I will be on the river (the Rogue) will be the 19th through the 21st and am hoping to try one out at Two Hands.

Beyond that,from the people I talk to and the emails I get, I'm not alone in my confusion or my frustration. Even the flyshop owners don't seem to have any real certainty...and that makes their advice (any advice) slightly suspect.

Anyway, believe me I know and understand...intellectually at least...that it all comes down to "different strokes" (see, I even cliche-d it). But it's hard for a trainee to even know what his stroke is until he's cast a dozen different rods, each with a different action, and each with a half dozen lines weights for, like you, a dozen years or so.

It's a catch-22--the permutations are mind-blowing.

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post #22 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 11:00 AM
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They might as well put a label on the rod that says "Hey! just use what ever feels good"...even if practically speaking the tyro needs to buy at least three different head weights to have any hope of knowing whether the rod will work for him or not. (Did I mention I have some skagit heads for sale...at about half what I paid for them?)
Well I can tell you that the system you describe above works pretty damned good but the part about the tyro having to buy 3 heads is BS as there are many shops that have demo heads available and lots of other places to try lines out for little to nothing in cost.

In you case DWFII I offered to send you demo heads on one occasion that I remember and you turned me down.

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How you get the line out and fishing is personal preference so as long as it works and is easy no one should care but the caster. MSB
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post #23 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 11:03 AM
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In you case DWFII I offered to send you demo heads on one occasion that I remember and you turned me down.
Did you think that was personal?

It wasn't meant to be.

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post #24 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 11:08 AM
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Even the flyshop owners don't seem to have any real certainty..
The fly shop owners can only have as much certainty as befits their personal experience with a given rod/line and that of anglers close to them that they have discussed it with. There is no way in Hell that a fly shop owner, or anyone else for that matter can know how any potential casters from anywhere will want to load the rod. It's not happening now, it wasn't happening 10/12 years ago when some of us discussed this same subject, and I don't think it will happen ever in the way you envision it.

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How you get the line out and fishing is personal preference so as long as it works and is easy no one should care but the caster. MSB
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post #25 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 11:58 AM
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I've got to believe that the engineer had something in mind.
I agree. IMO the Deathstar is a 7 wt or a 7/8 because it casts around 500 grain Skagit and 450 Scandi. (435ssvt) It can also go heavier but looses a little sweetness (technical term) But if you line it super heavy like some do, it feels like mush- (to me) it is no 9 weight as I have heard at least one prominent instructor comment.

Fred- when you say the Method wont replace the TCX- (7wt) are you saying it lacks the raw power of the TCX?

... the pseudo-science of running-lines and matching heads has now devolved into such a miasma of obfuscation that it is a wonder that people are even not more confused....Erik Helm

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post #26 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 11:59 AM
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Beyond that,from the people I talk to and the emails I get, I'm not alone in my confusion or my frustration. Even the flyshop owners don't seem to have any real certainty...and that makes their advice (any advice) slightly suspect.


Here may be part of your problem, do you you spend more time on the internet trying to figure this out than you do standing in a river ? Further more, the only true advice you will need that will work for you is your own... Everything else will be suggestions , some good and some bad, only you can figure out which ones work for you. That's not the flyshop's job, it's yours...




The reason the fly shops lack certainty is because we as spey casters are the biggest bunch of fickled idots in the fishing world!! Bar none!!!!!!!!!!
And I include myself in that fraternity. I can't even begin to tell you how many rods Iv'e bought , loved like like a big boobed high school girl friend, then kicked to the kurb for the next hot stick. In hindsight, most all of them are hot, we just cool and heat up at the pace of the setting and rising sun! Line choice is a bit more standard, but still very suspect to preference. To give out a "This is the correct line for this rod" recomendation would be ubsurd for any rod on the market today with all the subtle options in lines especially if you cut and paste. One guy can tell the diff between 10 grains and the next guy can't tell the diff between 100 grns...
I think an owner of a spey flyshop should be sainted, and must have the resolve of Christ to put up with all of us-
Many rely too much on others to recommend the "Best" thing for them, when in reality, the only way to answer that question is to spend years with cold nuts in a fridged river, soaking up one of the coolest getdowns the fishing/sporting world has to offer... You can tweak your set up with stroke and timing if needed , You may in time find that that is the weight you want after all... It aint all about "perfectly matched" set ups. Get out there and figure it out, it aint rocket science, but it takes a hell of a commitment to practice it enough to learn it, and get good at it-

Meanwhile, back @ the ranch...



Support Wounded Warrior Project, You will be so glad you do...

Take it to the water, and see if it works for you-

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Last edited by fishmhard; 09-08-2013 at 06:58 PM.
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post #27 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 12:34 PM
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fishmhard,

You have out done yourself, on point, brilliant !!! As brother Fred would say " Post of The Day."

sixheads

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post #28 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 12:40 PM
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I'm sure none of this will pan out as I hope or wish. Very little in life ever turns out the way we envision it. And for all of that I would let this discussion go except...except...what I'm getting from these responses is that no one wants to acknowledge the elephant in the room and I'm kind of out of line to even mention it.

What I do know...because I was there...is that 25-30 years ago if I went in to a fly shop and bought a 7 wt rod the fly shop owner would have confidently set me up with a 7 wt line. It would never have occurred to him to offer me an 8wt or a 6 wt, nevermind a 9wt. It never would have occurred to either of us to wonder about my casting stroke and whether I like to feel the rod bend all the way to the grip or not.

Maybe all that was short-sighted and ignorant but it never occurred to anyone at the time...at least I never ran across it...that getting the fly out there anyway you could was the optimal scenario. Perhaps because taken to the logical extreme...it could be argued, IOW...putting a lead head fly on the end of some 15# mono and attaching that to some mono running line is also "getting it out there any way you can." You either learned to cast a fly rod the right way...within a certain parameters...or you went back to flinging hardware.

And you know what? In all those years, despite differences in rod actions, despite differing materials used in making rods, despite different techniques for casting a flyline (like those taught in the pits at the Golden Gate Casting Club), it seemed to work out well...for everybody. Looking back it seems to me that it was the mechanics of the cast and the engineering/design of the rods and lines that were the foundations of the cast not the energy or the nature or the height or the sensibility of the fisherman.

Guys, I'm fine with there being no right way (I'll figure it out, eventually). We live in a 256 grey scale world today...both practically and ethically. The problem with that, however, is that without some reliable, informed, logical guidance, it's too dern hard to see the edge of the cliff until you walk off it.

But if everyone has a different stroke and they're all valid and no one line weight can be certain to be perfect for anyone, then why label a rod at all? Or, again, why not just say "do what feels good" and leave it at that?

Why not just come out and say it--"no one really knows"?

As my old pap used to say "honesty is the best policy."

Tight Lines & Dry Waders--DWFII
http://www.bootmaker.com/bespoke.htm

Last edited by DWFII; 09-08-2013 at 07:27 PM.
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post #29 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 12:49 PM
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post #30 of 114 (permalink) Old 09-08-2013, 01:11 PM
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Here may be part of your problem, do you you spend more time on the internet trying to figure this out than you do standing in a river ?
I spend more time at home(and hence, on the Internet) and in the shop than I do on the river...no question. But I've spent the last 40+ years working at a 19th century Trade for, relatively speaking, 19th century wages. Unlike some, I don't have unlimited resources nor unlimited time. Both are called for by third and fourth and even fifth parties. Anyone who works, esp. with his hands, for a living understand this concept.

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Further more, the only true advice you will need that will work for you is your own... Everything else will be suggestions , some good and some bad, only you can figure out which ones work for you. That's not the flyshop's job, it's yours...
No, I understand. I take all advice with a grain of salt. But if it's not within the Flyshop's purview to be knowledgeable about the products he is selling, if you cannot rely on them to give you somewhat expert and objective advice...then you might as well buy your Sage rod at Costco.

And your shoes at Walmart....chalk it up to a belief that everyone involved in the transaction has a responsibility.

Oops there's that word.

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