American Rods - Page 2 - Spey Pages
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post #16 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-23-2017, 05:34 PM
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Come on, come on now guys,yes we have decided they are are all very nice people that make the rods, but why are they better ?What carbon are they using, where did it come from, Korea, China, or maybe New Zealand ? What resin binds the rods ? What action are they? No one has yet to answer my question. Handplanedrods comments "from folks that really understand two hand rods". That infers the big boys do not! I am sure the likes of Sage have more expertise in this game than the the boutique builders. Goran Andersson was one of the very first designers of double handed rods for Sage. Anybody want to question his expertise? I apologise for not mentioning Winston, they too make excellent rods, I wonder where there designers come from?. What is coming out of this thread is that the two companies in question seem concentrated in the PNW. I wpould suggest selling a rod to a guy in New Zealand is not enough to warrant an international reputation. Now get back to the matter in hand, tell me why these rods are so good and why they cost so much. Finally why do they justify such disproportionate attention on here ?
Coming from the shooting sports, I used to ask the same regarding an English bespoke double or an Italian target gun, as opposed to a run-of-the-mill Browning or Beretta that one can walk into a big box store here in the States and buy right now. I have now seen the detail that goes into a handmade Purdey and the fine checkering on a Perazzi. Do they break clays or kill birds better than a cast metal Ruger Red Label? No, but there is an inherent joy in ordering something "from the man" and having it delivered to your door to your specs. I personally find the rococo and bulino engraving on some makers' guns to be gaudy, whereas the classic rose & scroll on a case hardened Purdey is classy as hell.

On the issue of cost, I believe that you can buy a Meiser, Anderson, or Burkheimer for the same (or less) than can be spent on the lastest and greatest from Sage. And Beulah's Platinums and Gary Anderson's Nova and Explorer rods are downright bargains. Your exchange rate and VAT may affect this, as Sage, Loomis, etc may have found a way to market in Europe separately, thus negating this aspect. And if Utility is truly all that you're after, you may as well look at the Echo rods designed by Rajeff Sports.

I know that Bob Meiser would be happy to discuss his process in choosing carbons and resins with you, without giving away the farm. The others may as well. Speaking only for myself, I can tell you that that part of the equation makes my eyes glaze and you may as well be speaking Swahili to me as the physics and chemistry involved in actually building/rolling a blank. I really don't know if I like a rod until I've cast it.

Don't know exactly where you're visiting in the States, but if you were to happen to find yourself in the vicinity of SW Oregon, you'd have opportunity to visit Meiser, Anderson, and Beulah in the same day. Burkheimer in located a day to the north. If your schedule was flexible, you could try to attend one of many Claves, where you'd have the opportunity to cast virtually any rod that interests you.

Your mileage may vary.
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post #17 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-23-2017, 05:50 PM
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after hitting "send" on the above post, it occurred to me that The Man to pose your question to is probably Steve Godshall ([email protected]) Steve builds LINES, not Rods, and although he shares quarters with the Meiz, he is one of the most unbiased and encyclopedic (or encyclopaedic, if you prefer) sources of various rodmakers and their blanks walking. If you want to be dazed into oblivion, he can discuss flex profiles, resin parameters, and carbon matrices until the cows come home.
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post #18 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-23-2017, 05:51 PM
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I think it is all about tapers, no matter the material. Graphite and resin specs are going to affect weight and recovery, but as I'm not a chemist or materials expert, I go by the feel. I also like to support small builders, as it reflects my own life as a very small business. And frankly, I don't think the quality of their tapers or their builds can be beat. And based on the feel, after playing with rods from all manufacturers at various claves, I have the rods I have because I love the feel of them casting.

I own Meisers, Burkheimers, an Anderson and a James Reid bamboo spey rods. There's not a dog in the bunch, nor one I would begin to describe as noodle-ish. I tend to like a rod with a stiffer tip and some junk in the trunk, but that said, the European style scandi rods I've cast felt like pool cues to me, and I didn't care for them. That may be where your feeling came from concerning the Burkie, maybe different than you've become accustomed to. The Burkies I have and have had are very capable of what they are designed for, and not each is the same.
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post #19 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-23-2017, 05:58 PM
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Sorry guys, but if I've ever seen an OP trolling for whatever reason, this is it.

Oh, and this is a hoot (how come no one gave their qualifications to merit being able to respond to the guy):"I would ask that those replying please only do so if you are proficient in all styles of speycasting. The problem is with forums that it it is difficult to access the skills of contributors so don't be coy and please state your skill and experience in your reply. "

Good grief.
Gary
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post #20 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-23-2017, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Llandogo View Post
Come on, come on now guys,yes we have decided they are are all very nice people that make the rods, but why are they better ?What carbon are they using, where did it come from, Korea, China, or maybe New Zealand ? What resin binds the rods ? What action are they? No one has yet to answer my question.
That may partially be due to your not having asked about those things.

Original question asked and answered, to the best of the ability to answer the question.

You reiterate ‘tell me why these rods are so good’. Well all those posts on here that inspired your original post are pretty much are trying to explain that. Why more that the big boys? Those get a lot of love on here too. Maybe people feel, consciously or unconsciously, that they need to talk up the companies that don’t have multimillion dollar advertising departments behind them.

Rest assured it is not because people have not used or own all of those rods and make direct comparisons, or that they do not use, love, and know how to cast scandi heads. Sorry, no easy hook like that to dismiss the phenomenon.

But like all experiential things it ultimately comes down to the experience itself - what is the color of ‘red’, or what is the ‘whump’ of a Burkheimer? Someone might be able to explain how those thing got there, but the thing itself that has the actual value, not so easy.

Maybe you should be more specific in your questions, and/or do a search of past posts. For example, what kind of rod would you be looking for, and which lines would you like to use most with it? Or maybe, how does this specific Sage rod compare to that specific Meiser, Burkie, Beulah.

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post #21 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-23-2017, 06:03 PM
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As a self-proclaimed expert in all styles of casting, I can say without hesitation that everybody makes good rods.

Although Rob Allen will tell you almost all rods have tips too light without sufficient bend in the lower 2/3rds.
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post #22 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-23-2017, 06:04 PM
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Ok I feel like jumping into this debate is like trying to untie the Gordonian knot, there is no answer. But since I’ve just wheelbarrowed and spread four yds of mulch and have little energy left for anything else, here goes.

If all you want is a tool and don’t carry about how coarse it is, your answer is to try lots of rods and find the one whose action matches your preference and whose warranty meets your needs. Lots of options out there for Skandi rods. Yes Goran was very instrumental in the early Sage rods, especially the European action models (9140-3, 10150-3 and 10151 come to mind). At the same time Jimmy Green was behind the PNW tapers like the 7136, 9140-4, 8150 and the 10150-4. At that time, I believe they were about the best money could buy. Sage warranty was good and that was a good thing because they broke. The 10151 in particular had a bad habit of blowing up.

The Scott rods at that time were a joke. Loomis had a couple in their inventory that were nice but few caught on. Winston had yet to jump into the game. On the other side of the pond there were some good options (Diawa, B&W, and a bit later some of the Loop rods). In my opinion they were not the match of the Sage though as the first two were really heavy and the last tended to not be super durable.

Note this was in the time when in North America anyways, there were few line options. Most of us threw a Windcutter (54’) or a double taper. I didn’t know one PNW angler That tossed a Skandi line. Soon, the lines caught up to rod development and longer bellies became available. Carron Jetstream, Rio Midspey, Rio Accelerator, and SA XLT became popular options.

In the late 90’s rod development took off and Thomas and Thomas and CND started putting out great rods that were dependable and also lighter and more responsive than the generation before. Even more so, you had a choice of actions with some rods designed for Skagit, some for Skandi and some for long bellies. Sage and the other players fell behind and had to play catch up and it took them a while.

It was shortly after this time that Meiser and Burkie started to become well known. Not only could you pick a rod for specific line use (e.g - Meiser MKS for Skagit or S-Series for Skandi) but you could dial in the fit and finish to your specs. For instance, I owned a number of Sage rods but always thought the handles were too fat, often not long enough (top) and the reel seats were crap. With the small guys, you ordered exactly what you wanted and liked. The warranty is as good as the big honchos as is the performance. So why not?

It all comes down to what you like. The technology is always changing too. Meisers in the last two years have become lighter and with a faster recovery. I’m sure the same can be said for Sage, Scott, etc. Many have suggested you cast a number and see what you think. I second that. And if you get to cast a Meiser or five, don’t limit yourself to the series that matches your line choice. In my experience, the MKS rods make great long belly tools and some of the S-series really shine with a mid belly. And drop a Highlander down a line weight and it will throw a 65’ head like a Skandi.

So in closing, different strokes for different folks. I still think some of the big boy’s rods are classics. The Loop Yellow 9 weight, the Sage 8150, a couple of the Scott ARC series and the T&T 1307-3. That last one is still the holy grail of rods in my book. I was so taken with it that when Bob Meiser told me he had an 8 weight with a similar action, I ordered it on the spot. In fact I fished it this morning.

Good luck on your search.

Hardy-Davidson

"Loud reels save lives"
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post #23 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-23-2017, 06:21 PM
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In fact I fished it this morning.......
Yeah, honestly, Honey, I was spreading mulch the whole time you were Christmas shopping......
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post #24 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-23-2017, 06:28 PM
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i'm new to the two handed game and just picked up a Thomas and Thomas. I often wonder how they stack up as I don't see them mentioned that much on this site??? But then again i don't really care what other people think what i'm using as long as i'm happy with my purchase. Do you think the fish cares what rod you are using or how made it???

I hope every one has a Merry Christmas and find the right rod under the tree this year ( made by the right person ) and has many days fishing it!!!
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???
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post #25 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-23-2017, 06:52 PM
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Llandago,

I may not be qualified to respond to your request. I'm a bit of a duffer in Spey casting, but I've been at it a while. I single and double Spey all right, and I use the snap-T a bit for winter fishing. However I've neglected to master the snake roll.

I own neither a Burkheimer nor Meiser, but I have cast samples of each. They cast beautifully, certainly beyond my ability. But then, that holds true of my 3 Sage Spey rods, 4 counting the old prototype that predates the original 9140-4 brownie, my CND rods or Beulah, but maybe not so much for my nearly ancient Hardy 15' noodle.

I cannot say that Burkheimer or Meiser rods are better than Sage or Loomis. However, they are every bit as good, with the finish and cork quality being generally unsurpassed. I don't know a single Burkie or Meiser owner who has said, "I wish I had bought a (insert well known national brand here).

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post #26 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-23-2017, 08:51 PM
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My Two Favorite Outfits (Both Rods American Coincidentally)

I probably have the most understated Meiser out there (gulp, no feather inlays). Notice my other favorite is a Sage.




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post #27 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-23-2017, 11:36 PM
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I'll bite. What makes them better? I like them.

Meiser will tell you that there are no bad rods these days, and I would agree. It's about quality and style. I have fished several different rods and spent time casting new offerings at claves. I've spent time with Loomis rods and really appreciate the Asquith, super light and powerful...but too fast for my normal rhythm.

You want facts about carbon scrims, material information...very few, myself included, can talk intelligently about the small differences design among the various builders. In the end, strength, lightness in hand, and recovery seem to matter most.

So, here you go. I like strong rods, robust guides, durable cork because I fish hard and want my gear to perform. I like Meisers proprietary guides as they are heavy duty and give me confidence they won't break, bend, or warp when I rack them on a rock, tree, or boat gunnel.

The cork on many production rods, even high end Sage and Loomis, isn't always as good as it should be. Meiser, Burkie and ACR-no issues. The ability to use burnt cork in my handles ensures greater durability than conventional cork, an option not offered by other companies.

Design- the new CX series from Meiser uses a completely different scrim and has proven extremely durable though it is lighter. The new material also transfers the feel better than previous rods, at least to me. I think Anderson uses a similar blank build up as well.

If you want the classic Scandi rod, fast recovery, tip flex, the PNW builders may not be your cup of tea.

BTW, I'm a fisherman first, caster second. I get the fly out there, pretty or not. These rods cast just fine Scandi, Skagit, mid belly etc so yes, they will work for any casting style you prefer.

Are the PNW builders offerings better? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

DH
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post #28 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-23-2017, 11:56 PM
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Absolutely couldn’t have been said better Dave.
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post #29 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-24-2017, 12:00 AM
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Yes I love my meiser and my burkies but.....them Bruce and walker rods are kinda my favs at the moment. Could be just that they have such a different feel compared to the lighter faster action rods being made now but they seem to do everything well and as for not being the lightest or most new age nano bull **** they are a rod built for spey fishing. I guess what I’m saying is you have some good rod manufacturers in your neck of the woods. The grass may look greener on the other side but it’s usually still grass.
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post #30 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-24-2017, 12:07 AM
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Sorry guys, but if I've ever seen an OP trolling for whatever reason, this is it.

Oh, and this is a hoot (how come no one gave their qualifications to merit being able to respond to the guy):"I would ask that those replying please only do so if you are proficient in all styles of speycasting. The problem is with forums that it it is difficult to access the skills of contributors so don't be coy and please state your skill and experience in your reply. "

Good grief.
Gary
Well said ,Gary .My thoughts exactly
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Don't sweat the bad casts for they sometimes bring you fish
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