Fast Action vs Progressive Action - Page 2 - Spey Pages
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post #16 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-01-2016, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Marty View Post
Full Flex, mid flex, tip flex are the terms I prefer to use.
Agreed. Fast, Medium and Slow are really subjective terms.
As I understand it, "Ultra Fast" and "Progressive" describe two separate characteristics of the rod. "Ultra Fast" describes how much the rod bends (ie very little), and "Progressive" describes HOW it bends. A progressive rod bends first in the tip, then progressively further down the blank as more pressure is applied.

I think most modern rods are progressive, so the Sage can be both "Ultra Fast" and "Progressive" - it bends first in the tip, then progressively down into the butt, it just takes more pressure to do it.
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post #17 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-01-2016, 09:36 AM
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Inuit words for describing " Snow" <> Ironically ... Exactly the same number of words anglers have used over the centuries to describe "Rod Actions" ... };^) ... !!!


tlapa powder snow
tlacringit snow that is crusted on the surface
kayi drifting snow
tlapat still snow
klin remembered snow
naklin forgotten snow
tlamo snow that falls in large wet flakes
tlatim snow that falls in small flakes
tlaslo snow that falls slowly
tlapinti snow that falls quickly
kripya snow that has melted and refrozen
tliyel snow that has been marked by wolves
tliyelin snow that has been marked by Eskimos
blotla blowing snow
pactla snow that has been packed down
hiryla snow in beards
wa-ter melted snow
tlayinq snow mixed with mud
quinaya snow mixed with Husky ****
quinyaya snow mixed with the **** of a lead dog
slimtla snow that is crusted on top but soft underneath
kriplyana snow that looks blue in the early morning
puntla a mouthful of snow because you fibbed
allatla baked snow
fritla fried snow
gristla deep fried snow
MacTla snow burgers
jatla snow between your fingers or toes, or in groin-folds
dinliltla little balls of snow that cling to Husky fur
sulitlana green snow
mentlana pink snow
tidtla snow used for cleaning
ertla snow used by Eskimo teenagers for exquisite erotic rituals
kriyantli snow bricks
hahatla small packages of snow given as gag gifts
semtla partially melted snow
ontla snow on objects
intla snow that has drifted indoors
shlim slush
warintla snow used to make Eskimo daiquiris
mextla snow used to make Eskimo Margaritas
penstla the idea of snow
mortla snow mounded on dead bodies
ylaipi tomorrow's snow
nylaipin the snows of yesteryear ("neiges d'antan")
pritla our children's snow
nootlin snow that doesn't stick
rotlana quickly accumulating snow
skriniya snow that never reaches the ground
bluwid snow that's shaken down from objects in the wind
tlanid snow that's shaken down and then mixes with sky-falling snow
ever-tla a spirit made from mashed fermented snow, popular among Eskimo men
talini snow angels
priyakli snow that looks like it's falling upward
chiup snow that makes halos
blontla snow that's shaken off in the mudroom
tlalman snow sold to German tourists
tlalam snow sold to American tourists
tlanip snow sold to Japanese tourists
protla snow packed around caribou meat
attla snow that as it falls seems to create nice pictures in the air
sotla snow sparkling with sunlight
tlun snow sparkling with moonlight
astrila snow sparkling with starlight
clim snow sparkling with flashlight or headlight
tlapi summer snow
krikaya snow mixed with breath
ashtla expected snow that's wagered on (depth, size of flakes)
huantla special snow rolled into "snow reefers" and smoked by wild Eskimo youth
tla-na-na snow mixed with the sound of old rock and roll from a portable radio
depptla a small snowball, preserved in Lucite, that had been handled by Johnny Depp
trinkyi first snow of the year
tronkyin last snow of the year
shiya snow at dawn
katiyana night snow
tlinro snow vapor
nyik snow with flakes of widely varying size
ragnitla two snowfalls at once, creating moire patterns
akitla snow falling on water
privtla snow melting in the spring rain
chahatlin snow that makes a sizzling sound as it falls on water
hootlin snow that makes a hissing sound as the individual flakes brush
geltla snow dollars
briktla good building snow
striktla snow that's no good for building
erolinyat snow drifts containing the imprint of crazy lovers
chachat swirling snow that drives you nuts
krotla snow that blinds you
tlarin snow that can be sculpted into the delicate corsages Eskimo girls pin to their whale parkas at prom time
motla snow in the mouth
sotla snow in the south
maxtla snow that hides the whole village
tlayopi snow drifts you fall into and die
truyi avalanche of snow
tlapripta snow that burns your scalp and eyelids
carpitla snow glazed with ice
tla ordinary snow

Meiz
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post #18 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-01-2016, 01:08 PM
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I think all of this goes to show it to be damn near impossible to accurately describe fly rod performance in words. A good many past attempts can be categorized under "if you can't dazzle them with facts, baffle them with bu!!$hit" mostly the latter. Running close alongside this statement is "there is more than one way to skin a cat", some of which have surfaced here.

Some people will pick a lined rod off the rack at a clave, make a few casts, proclaim it magic, (you ain't gettin' this back, just tell me how much it's gonna cost me)(you know who you are ) while others may just move on. It's the same rod!

Go cast some rods.

I fish because the voices inside my head tell me to.

Last edited by JDJones; 06-01-2016 at 06:10 PM.
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post #19 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-01-2016, 02:45 PM
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The Connon Cents System is the best method to find out rod stiffness (Intrinsic Power/Effective Rod Number) and how much rod lever shortens (Action Angle) when rod bends. When the Rod Moment of Inertia together with section weights are measured it reveals how much rod bends under its own weight versus under the line weight which basically defines how advanced technology there is used on a blank. All this needs a database where to compare because softer and longer rods bend proportionally more than stiffer and shorter rods.

Esa
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post #20 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-01-2016, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bender View Post
The Connon Cents System is the best method to find out rod stiffness (Intrinsic Power/Effective Rod Number) and how much rod lever shortens (Action Angle) when rod bends. When the Rod Moment of Inertia together with section weights are measured it reveals how much rod bends under its own weight versus under the line weight which basically defines how advanced technology there is used on a blank. All this needs a database where to compare because softer and longer rods bend proportionally more than stiffer and shorter rods.

Esa

How much the rod bends has nothing to do with how technologically advanced it is...

Beyond that technological advancement over the last 20 years has pretty much just brought us rods that are too light and too stiff.. With a few notable exceptions.
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post #21 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-01-2016, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by bender View Post
The Connon Cents System is the best method to find out rod stiffness (Intrinsic Power/Effective Rod Number) and how much rod lever shortens (Action Angle) when rod bends. When the Rod Moment of Inertia together with section weights are measured it reveals how much rod bends under its own weight versus under the line weight which basically defines how advanced technology there is used on a blank. All this needs a database where to compare because softer and longer rods bend proportionally more than stiffer and shorter rods.

Esa
Reminds me of the angle of the dangle--heat of the meat conundrum.

And then there are Bob's good words regarding snow!!!!!!!!!
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Last edited by Stumpy; 06-01-2016 at 11:52 PM. Reason: had to do it
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post #22 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-02-2016, 12:18 AM Thread Starter
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Well, that's quite a thread. I think what I've learned is if you want to know what action a rod has go cast it. I called Bob Meiser and he didn't say anything about snow but he still sold me an MKS 13'6" 8 weight. Oh yeah, he said I was going to have to slow down and use more bottom hand. I hope he wasn't "snowing" me. I am retired, I like slowing down so I bought the rod!!
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post #23 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-02-2016, 12:48 AM
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RLG - you just took your first step in years of good fishing!

You won't be disappointed!

Buena suerte!
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post #24 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-02-2016, 02:42 AM
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Hey RLG ...

"slow down <> more bottom hand" is a two handed mantra ... !!!

Also been wanting to somehow use that "50 words for snow" thing as an analogy for over 50 years <> Thanks to you I finally got to do it ... Good on ya ... };^) ... !!!

Meiz
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post #25 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-02-2016, 05:45 AM
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IMHO a technical advanced rod is not a rod build with the latest hyper modulus fiber, super duper tech fabrication or super resin rather I would venture the idea that a technically advanced rod is a rod where the designer of the rod makes the modulus, the resin, the taper, the hoop strength, the wall thickness, the diameter of the rod and the different blends of modulus up through the rod suddenly become more than the mere sum of the components, it is like building a music instrument a Stradivarius or Guarneri. Few masters this and those that do are the true masters of their trade and somehow we all know who they are.

Johnncke
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post #26 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-02-2016, 09:58 AM
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How much the rod bends has nothing to do with how technologically advanced it is...

Beyond that technological advancement over the last 20 years has pretty much just brought us rods that are too light and too stiff.. With a few notable exceptions.
Rods advance slowly but it is the stiffness/weight ratio getting better where the technology can increase the casting performance. Some gain can be achieved building blank thinner which decrease wind resistance and then rod bends less and straightens faster.

If you feel the rod too stiff or light it is not because of technology! Its because who rated it or did not print the data and you who bought it without knowing its stiffness and weight where CCS and MOI would have been good!

When rod gets lighter it bends less under its own weight and line speed becomes faster and caster does not have to change anything. Actually caster needs to decrease the used force because other vise the line behind a lighter rod accelerates faster to a higher speed.

When the rod weights proportionally less the more energy transfers directly to the line as kinetic energy and less to the rod as potential energy. Fly fishing rods have very low efficiency when they release energy to fly line using "spring" effect. There are few studies where it has been only 8% to 20% but they have been single hand casts and rods.

It should be very easy to feel the difference casting same line using modern high tech rod against an old rod. The difference on max casting distance is not much because the line has big influence but if casting continues long time there is significant difference in needed effort.

Esa
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post #27 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-02-2016, 10:16 AM
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Reminds me of the angle of the dangle--heat of the meat conundrum.

And then there are Bob's good words regarding snow!!!!!!!!!
I believe that you are not willing to understand but if someone is the less MOI feels what some describe as light and crisp snow which leads to less counter sledge when stops are executed which results narrower snow slopes which has less snow bumps!

Esa
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post #28 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-02-2016, 11:13 AM
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Esa ... You do seem to appreciate the technical approach to things ...

If you check it out <> Some of the Inuit "snow" definitions are very technical and actually quite useful ...

I especially appreciate:

Warintla: Snow used to make Eskimo daiquiris

Mextla: Snow used to make Eskimo Margaritas

Meiz
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post #29 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-02-2016, 11:32 AM
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That's tough because my Meiser 7/8/9 11'7" is super fast. Bob gave me some pointers when I was first trying to "dial in" the rod - he said stop earlier and pull more with my bottom hand. And of course that advice worked like magic.
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post #30 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-02-2016, 12:09 PM
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I enjoyed reading this thread. Many of us aspire to be keyboard experts on rod action (speaking for myself).

I wanted to note that Henrik Mortensen provides a good demonstration of how the but section of the rod contributes power - particularly when you use the bottom hand. Have a look at one of the you tube clips of Master Scandinavian casting if interested. Not advertsing here....but I think the video shows that a deep flex can be used to create high line speed with minimal energy. Something that seems to be well known now.

Cheers Harlan
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