Trouble in Gaspe? - Spey Pages
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
post #1 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-07-2008, 11:10 PM Thread Starter
chrome-magnon man
 
Dana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: west coast steelhead/salmon, BC/Alberta trout
Posts: 5,375
Trouble in Gaspe?

Just finished reading through the latest edition of the Angling Report Newsletter (March 2008) where there's discussion of some developments of interest and possible concern to salmon anglers (pg.08). I've emailed Bill Greiner of speypages sponsor Malbaie River Outfitters to get some perspective and expect that we'll see some commentary here from Bill shortly.



Dana is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-07-2008, 11:21 PM
Competent Caster Wannabe
 
David Dornblaser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: the Upper Midwest
Posts: 974
Send a message via AIM to David Dornblaser
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dana View Post
Just finished reading through the latest edition of the Angling Report Newsletter (March 2008) where there's discussion of some developments of interest and possible concern to salmon anglers (pg.08). I've emailed Bill Greiner of speypages sponsor Malbaie River Outfitters to get some perspective and expect that we'll see some commentary here from Bill shortly.

Could you fill us in a little more? I reveive the ASF magazine but I am not familiar with either the Angling Report Newsletter nor to the problem that you are concerned about.

- David
David Dornblaser is offline  
post #3 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-07-2008, 11:37 PM Thread Starter
chrome-magnon man
 
Dana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: west coast steelhead/salmon, BC/Alberta trout
Posts: 5,375
The newsletter says that negotiations over fishing rights between the government and local First Nations could lead to protests during this summer's angling season. We should hear more about this from Bill tomorrow. Here's a link:

http://www.anglingreport.com/current_issue.cfm?id=417



Dana is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-08-2008, 07:43 AM
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 103
David:

The Angling Report is a monthly newsletter in which subscribers as well as staff writers discuss the good, bad, and ugly of various destinations worldwide. It is a very influential pulication for those who travel in terms of where they may or may not go and is essentially for angler by anglers.

In a nutshell, Gespg (the Mic Mac band in Gasp) sought to obtain access to the York, Dartmouth, and St. Jean Rivers over a year ago for the purpose of economic development and job creation for their community. They had a 5 year agreement which was signed with the Government of Quebec that covered fishing and hunting activities for members of their Community. The agreement was through Sept 30, 2007 (the article in the Angling Report listed the term as being thru Sept 2006- I presume that was either a typo or miscommunication). That agreement allowed Gespeg to net a certain number of salmon in each of the 3 rivers for Community purposes. It also gave a few fishing days at no charge to members of the Gespeg Community as well. Further, Gespeg, through this agreement, agreed to respect the fishing regulations such as fly fishing (when they fished for sport and individual consumption) as well as to conform to the regulations regarding fishing sectors, etc. Certainly there are more details in the agreement but that is the heart of the agreement relative to fishing, their, rights, and what the present situation is.

There have been discussions with the Government and Gespeg for more than a year with the intent to have a new agreement ready for 2008 that would have taken effect after the prior agreement ended. It is important to note that in Quebec (I suspect it is the same throughout Canada) First Nations dealings are between Governments; theirs as well as either the Provincial or Federal. That said, they have also met with the local Zec representatives along with the Government over the past year as well in order to find a reasonable and viable deal for their Community.

As of a week or so ago, they are no further along then they were when they started over a year ago, manily due to the opposition by the Zec to their plans and desire to pursue economic development and job creation through outfitting. They (Gespeg) made it clear late last summer that if they did not have an acceptable agreement by the start of the 2008 fishing season they would do whatever they had to in order to exercise their native rights. Without a fishing agreement in place, members of their Community are free to fish anywhere they want; that means they could have 5 people from their Community fishing alongside 2 people who had reserved a 2 rod sector on a river. They could do so with fly rods, spinning rods, nets, or whatever they choose. That is the conflict that was apparently alluded to in the article.

I believe the Government and the Zec were made aware of this possibility on a few occassions over the past year and so if there are confrontations or disruptions to fishing it should not be a suprise to them.

If Gespeg chooses to exercise their Native Fishing Rights in such a manner they will NOT affect the fishing of any local anglers or resident anglers on the York, Dartmouth, or lower St. Jean Rivers.

I want to ASSURE clients and prospective clients of Malbaie River Outfitters, and anyone else who is planning on fishing theses 3 rivers and is using an outfitter or guiding company that they will not be affected either; I was given this assurance last fall.

I would suspect that those who will likely be impacted from this will be the privileged people who fish at the Pavillion on the St. Jean River and the upper York River. It will be unfortunate if people's fishing experiences and trips are affected/ruined but that may be the price paid for resolving this conflict.

If I may say so editorially, these rivers are public (save the small portions privately owned with riparian rights) and not the property of any 1 organization. First Nations were in the Gaspe long before anyone who came from Europe to settle there and courts have upheld Native Rights time and time again. There is plenty of room on these rivers for the public as well as for a presence from a First Nations band looking to better their community through job creation and economic development. A great example of this is the First Nations Outfitting Operation on the Grand Cascapedia River whereby they have access to rods through their Native Rights, and they operate side by side with private camps and a society (similar to a zec).

In conlcusion, my intention for responding in this thread is to assure clients and prospective clients of Malbaie River Outfitters not to be concerned regarding their trips to the Gaspe. I have no intention of debating this issue; it is an issue that exists between Gespeg and the Government of Quebec. For everyone's sake I hope it is resolved without issue to anyone.

Bill Greiner
malbaie river is offline  
post #5 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-08-2008, 02:25 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: GGACC to the Aleutians
Posts: 2,100
Thank you, Bill
Bob Pauli is offline  
post #6 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-08-2008, 06:18 PM
Competent Caster Wannabe
 
David Dornblaser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: the Upper Midwest
Posts: 974
Send a message via AIM to David Dornblaser
Thank you for the information.

- David
David Dornblaser is offline  
post #7 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-09-2008, 01:12 AM
Registered User
 
dpowell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Trinity, Skeena, Gaspe
Posts: 166
Beautiful country, and a remarkable lesson in a fishery that has "rebounded" due to the efforts of many...may all rights be honored with respect first to preservation of this wonderful resource...

Don
dpowell is offline  
post #8 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 01:35 PM
Salar36
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Bill,

I think you omitted to mention that Gespeg presented their project for the operation of a outfitter bussiness last year to the National Widlife group and they were looking for a "partnership" with a outfitter to be their "operation and commercial advisor". And this outfitter was you.
post #9 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 02:41 PM
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 103
Pierre:

The chief of Gespeg invited representatives from the Quebec Outfitters Federation, Quebec Salmon Anglers Association (FQSA), Quebec Wildlife Federation to a meeting, as well as from Saumon Quebec, The Zec Gaspe, and the Government of Quebec's Wildlife Ministry to outline the demand that Gespeg had made to The Quebec Government. This presentation took place last September in Quebec City.

Gespeg and Malbaie River Outfitters, at that time, were in a joint partnership regarding economic development and job creation for Gespeg's Community and thus I was present as well.

The chief made it clear as to what his Nation was looking for and what they would be willing to do as part of an agreement (one point was to suspend netting rights- a very noble and forward thinking position on Gespeg's part and one that has been well received when discussed with many including large corporate partners-- on the 3 Gaspe Rivers). He also made it clear that without a new agreement that included access to the rivers which would allow his Nation the opportunity for economic development and job creation they, along with others, would exercise their rights in any way they saw fit in 2008. It was made clear that local and resident anglers who fished the York, Dartmouth, and LOWER St. Jean Rivers would not be impacted in 2008.

Since then there have been some developments but I will not divulge what they are; this has been a demand by Gespeg and when they are ready to put forth a formal statement I will make sure that it gets out on websites and in the U.S. as soon as I am given a copy to disseminate. I would never attempt to speak for Gespeg or their chief; he will do so himself when he chooses.

One last point, it would be a mistake to presume arrangements, partnerships, agreements, etc relative to this file at this point. What you or others might be supposing is almost certainly not what will be laid out and discussed shortly. I would ask that you and others wait and see what comes out before speculating.

Bill Greiner
Malbaie River Outfitters
malbaie river is offline  
post #10 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 04:17 PM
Pullin' Thread
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: NW Washington
Posts: 4,694
Bill,

What a forward looking and thinking tribe the Gespeg Tribe is with their willingness to take out the nets for the right to have guided sportsfishing and the resultant employment for their members. Too bad not all tribes are thinking along these lines. I think they should be given credit for this by sportsfishers. Thanks for letting us know they are doing this.
flytyer is offline  
post #11 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 06:09 PM
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 103
Flytyer:

I could not agree with you more. This is an issue that is important to me as well and when I approached Gespeg back initially I explained that for me it was an issue which was important to me and essentially something that was not negotiable from my standpoint. When you look at the big picture; exercising their Native Rights in the modern way of fly fishing for salmon through outfitting which is a great way for them to have economic development (in activities that are an important part of their culture and heritage) and create jobs for members of their Community, it was a fairly easy decision in the end I believe.

When we have spoken about this to leading Corporations here in the U.S. as well as conservation organizations the response had been very positive. Additionally, there have been numerous offers to teach members of their Community to fly fish and there have been committments to provide thousands of dollars in equipment, etc to the Community as well. This is surely win-win for Gespeg, the salmon, and everyone else involved.

Will this be a blueprint for other such deals and arrangements in the future throughout North America; I sure hope so.

Bill Greiner
Malbaie River Outfitters
malbaie river is offline  
post #12 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 07:32 PM
Pullin' Thread
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: NW Washington
Posts: 4,694
Bill,

I hope so as well. Perhaps I'm a bit too optomistic, but what I see is if one tribe in either Canada or the US is successful in moving away from netting and into guiding to exercise their native fishing rights, other tribes will be far more amenable to moving in that direction as well. Plus, I'm certain the Gespeg will find that they will have more economic gain and employment from guiding instead of netting, which will also make it easier to work with other tribes to change from netting and going to guiding instead. Kudus to you for working with them on this.
flytyer is offline  
post #13 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 08:00 PM
Registered User
 
Salar-1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Quebec and -----
Posts: 1,102
This is a quote from a Gaspe paper
" April 29, 2002; A recent agreement between the Quebec Government and the Micmac of Gaspeg has given the natives the right to use gill nets at the mouth of three of Gaspe's salmon rivers, as well as unrestricted free fishing on the ZEC unlimited fishing zones. This has caused anger among local anglers who believe that the survival of the Atlantic Salmon will be jeopardized in the York, St. John, and Dartmouth Rivers."
As everyone know this dire prediction of a burst in the peacefull atmosphere (except for BG's anctics) from a very few loose canons was totally unfounded and the Gaspe'g band has continued to respect the agreement . The Gaspe'g band has lived in harmony with their neighbours and the Gaspe region is known for that. ANYTHING that will lift the nets is much needed .
ANOTHER outfitter on the 3 Gaspe rivers ? Might I offer another solution . The Canadian Gov't with good (and much delayed ) grace acquiesc to the Gaspe'g Band's demands by courteousely offering the Saint Jean River to the Band to govern as they wish ( a la Natashquan R.) There are numerous Canadian resource people that can help the Gaspe'g Band in this endeaver ,therefore ANY foreign interference would be unwelcome and uneeded . The Canadian Gov't (with Quebec tagging along ) would FINALLY be able show some respect for 1st Nation folk which sadly hasn't been shown of late . Then maybe we can all get back to fishing where Don so succinctly stated "Beautiful country " with a "wonderful resource "

Brian

Don't sweat the bad casts for they sometimes bring you fish
Salar-1 is offline  
post #14 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-19-2008, 12:15 PM
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 103
Brian:

Out of good faith last year Gespeg chose not to use any of their nets in the rivers or estuaries. They absolutely desire to shift their emphasis to outfitting and the economic development and job creation which will accompany this endeavor.

From what I have just learned the leadership in the Zec Gaspe continues to stand in the way of Gespeg's desire to engage in outfitting. While it is ultimately not their call (despite their delusions--the rivers do not belong to the Zec) and when one looks at treaties as well as court decisions the ULTIMATE outcome on this seems pretty clear. Nevertheless, it appears to me that there will, unfortunately, be confrontations on the rivers this coming season, particularly the upper St. Jean. It is unfortunate but, in my opinion, this position by the President and Director of the Zec reflects what I believe are their personal xenophobic and anti- First Nations attiitudes.

Your suggestion that Gespeg seek control of the St. Jean is one that has been discussed in the past. When there was discussion by all parties this was taken off the table, even though the impact on the public would be ZERO. My suspicision is that this file will ultimately end up in court and out of the hands of the civil servants and politicians who, as of now, seem to be ambivlanent to what will happen on the rivers this summer. Once in court (after the confrontations on the rivers take place) I would suspect that the best solution would be for Gespeg to take over the Pavillion and thus be in the outfitting business overnight. I have no doubt that they could run that business very successfully. Other than whining from a few in the Zec "click" I don't see much that would stand in the way of this, particularly after it goes through the judicial system. The Zec unsuccessfully sued the Government 2 years ago and it is clear that these rivers DO NOT belong to them.

In the meantime I do not expect any further developments on this file (I do not believe the Zec or Government will take any steps to move things forward or to avoid the confrontations this summer on the rivers). If you are planning on fishing the Pavillion perhaps it might be prudent to take a book to read alongside the river; you will probably have a lot of free time on your hands. As for other clients and other rivers (except for clients of outfitters) at this point I would say that all bets are off and anything that may previously have been off the table might no longer be so. If you are a resident angler I do not believe anything will be done to interupt your fishing.

This will certainly be written about in the next issue of the Angling Report (I will post the article or Dana can) as well as in most of the other fly fishing publications in North America. Anglers will undoutedly not be able to say that they did not know about this ahead of time.

Bill Greiner
malbaie river is offline  
post #15 of 46 (permalink) Old 03-19-2008, 01:14 PM
That Guy in PEI.....
 
Salmon Chaser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Atlantic Salmon rivers of Eastern Canada
Posts: 1,945
Send a message via MSN to Salmon Chaser
Here is my question. Do they(Gespeg) really think that there will be any,, or near as many sports to guide just because they are handed a turnkey operation,, even if it is the Pavilion?? This is the alternative to nets in the water?
I guess i can't argue that a treaty exists,, but it sure does get stretched pretty thin,, by this i mean it can be read to cover almost any lucrative business that first nations want to try their hands at. I am tired of it.
It happened here on PEI in the 90's with gov't buy backs of lobster fleets which were then handed over to Natives. The $$$ that the Gov't threw at retiring captains was astronomical and inflated the Licenses to heights that were virtually unattainable for young fishermen who wished for their own fleets,, or at the very least made payments so high that new captains are barely able to make ends meet. Ironically many native boat owners then hired back the very same captain that the gov't just bought out
I seriously do not envy anyone involved in this mess this summer!! Somedays I wish i had never given up golf!!
Continuous handouts due to a wafer thin "treaty" leaves a seriously sour taste in my mouth and i will not be handing out any $$$ to an "outfitter" that has earned nothing.
Salmon Chaser

There are only two options, you can fish above me or B-LOW me!!!!!
Lifetime Member of the FRSCA
East Coast Skagisil Jedi
DON'T BE A VOGT............
Salmon Chaser is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Spey Pages forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Linear Mode
Rate This Thread:



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
having a little trouble getting around... steveotto Rods 5 08-22-2003 02:10 PM

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome