tailing loop cackhanded snap C - Spey Pages
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 12:16 PM Thread Starter
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tailing loop cackhanded snap C

I was wondering if anyone has any practice drills for off shoulder snap c casting. last weekend while fishing on the NU I was struggling with my off shoulder casts, I couldn't generate any real power and was frequently throwing a tailing loop. I think it probably has to do with my application of bottom hand power causing the rod tip to track in an arc instead of a straight line and was just looking for any practice tips or ideas people have.
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 12:27 PM
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Try slowing down fixes a lot of cast issues.
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 02:17 PM
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Usually TL comes from too abrupt force peak which results a rod tip dip. Another TL which is rarer comes from too early and abrupt rod stop which make rod tip rise above the line path.

Drifting lengthens following casting stroke and it helps to fix first TL. Stopping later helps to cure second type TL.

When single hand casting hauling too early builds leads to TL type but usually second type as well when haul finishes too early.

Esa
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 10:52 AM
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I generally have found the crack handed was better for me! Unless I’m casting a 14-15’ rod. But as stated before, tailing loops are caused by too much power (usually harder to do cack handed though) or the anchor and fly is straight before final delivery.

For cack handed, I generally stay a little more compact with my body, and pause ever so slightly till I see the the fly and tippet straighten out. Should be easy to apply bottom hand since the awkward position almost always brings the bottom hand right up in order to finish the sweep

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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 11:46 AM Thread Starter
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thanks for al the replies. im going to her to the casting ponds today and see if I can get a couple videos of my casting so that maybe we can get a better idea of what is actually happening. thanks for the ideas
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 12:50 PM
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Usually caused by uneven or too early application of power. I could see it easy to do cach handed as the more limited range of motion constrains and concentrates the movement. Try backing off on power and thinking smoooooth acceleration. And slow down.

Start short- head and overhang only, and give just enough power to extend/straighten it, with no bounce back/reel burp. Then continue extending a strip at a time, each time adding just enough smooth power application to extend what you've added, without hitting the reel too hard. Make a fe casts at each length to really feel what's needed.
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 01:42 PM
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OK, bear with me on this one.

One of my fixes for this situation is to make sure I'm coming over the top with the rod tip on the forward stroke.

With a cack hand cast its easy to go forward with the rod somewhat diagonal. Its just more natural hand placement, for me at least. When you come forward with the rod diagonal you lose power. When you lose that power you feel like you really got to hit it hard to get the distance you want. That when you rush the forward stroke early and too hard. Bam, tailing loop.

If you come over the top with your forward stroke you generate a lot more power. The key is to do that AND really slow down. Like SLSS said, start short and work into the length. For me at least this proves to myself there is plenty of power there so I can do my sweep nice and slow and be gentle on the forward stroke.

This is also a god time to make sure you are keeping your top hand's elbow in tight. If you are swinging your top hand way out there its going to be hard to get the rod tip back to vertical on the forward stroke.

Hope that all made sense. What does to me doesn't to other quite often! Being self taught will do that to ya.
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 08:21 PM
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Make sure that when you form the D/ V loop that this is fully formed with plenty of tension & loading applied to the rod, then hit it before you loose the loading & the loop starts to collapse.

If you do this you won't need to over power the forward cast to compensate for a collapsing loop & it should therefore cast smoothly & correctly. Pull the bottom hand straight into your' floating ribs on the opposite side to the shoulder you are casting off (I find that if I'm casting right hand up off my left shoulder then if my watch strap on my left wrist finishes right at the base of my sturnum with my hand & the rod butt tight against my lower ribs further to the right, & my right arm still slightly bent on the stop then it's right for me), this forces a hard stop to flex the rod & cast the line without over powering the cast & creating tailing loops.

As others have said above, I get much less of a problem with these than when casting of my right (correct) shoulder, when I tend to forget what I'm doing on occasions & just "thump it".

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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 10:18 PM
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Just learn to cast the other way would be my advice. We can have a discussion of the pros and cons, but people that feel comfortable casting either way seldom cackhand! If you need to practice to get the cack-handed to work right then use the same (or just a little more) energy to learn to do them left handed. All the stuff about people being born with a certain “handedness” is neurologically pure malarkey. It is just mostly untrue as to the reason why it is initially hard to switch. It’s %95 muscle memory and spontaneous symmetry breaking. If you just decide to learn it it will happen pretty quick.

The drill I’d recommend, if you are already competent at doing a particular right-handed cast is switching back and forth between the right and left handed cast - one each side. Your left hand configuration will learn from the right-handed cast by mirroring. You just have to get over the hump which if you pay attention, work at it a bit, and don’t get distracted by shiny objects should only take the better part of an afternoon. Pretty small time for a lifetime switch with some advantages long term. A lot of people find they can almost immediately cast better left handed because some of their bad habits, like overpowering the power stroke and getting a tailing loop (and too much upper hand), aren’t carried over. Then maybe your left hand cast can teach you right hand a few things too!
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-12-2019, 01:56 PM
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Just learn to cast the other way would be my advice. We can have a discussion of the pros and cons, but people that feel comfortable casting either way seldom cackhand! If you need to practice to get the cack-handed to work right then use the same (or just a little more) energy to learn to do them left handed. All the stuff about people being born with a certain “handedness” is neurologically pure malarkey. It is just mostly untrue as to the reason why it is initially hard to switch. It’s %95 muscle memory and spontaneous symmetry breaking. If you just decide to learn it it will happen pretty quick.

The drill I’d recommend, if you are already competent at doing a particular right-handed cast is switching back and forth between the right and left handed cast - one each side. Your left hand configuration will learn from the right-handed cast by mirroring. You just have to get over the hump which if you pay attention, work at it a bit, and don’t get distracted by shiny objects should only take the better part of an afternoon. Pretty small time for a lifetime switch with some advantages long term. A lot of people find they can almost immediately cast better left handed because some of their bad habits, like overpowering the power stroke and getting a tailing loop (and too much upper hand), aren’t carried over. Then maybe your left hand cast can teach you right hand a few things too!

This worked precisely as you say for my pal Gary who now casts with more precision left hand up, but can still cast a little further with his "normal" right hand up.

I tried, but it doesn't work for me, I damaged my left shoulder a couple of times & trying to cast left hand up (besides my lack of precision) becomes uncomfortable then rather painful after a while - so I can't develop the necessary expertise this way. But crack handed is fine.

There are a few circumstances when the crack handed cast can be useful, the ability to switch shoulders very quickly in a gusting wind being one, this is also useful in unpredictable downstream gusts when fishing right hand up off the left bank when a crack handed double spey can quickly be manufactured if the gust stops your upstream sweep with the fly still down stream of you. Saves having to swap hands & start again with a left hand up double spey.

I wish I could manage a decent LH up cast, but I just can't, so crack handed works just fine for me & I can comfortably manage 90% + of the distance I can manage Casting RH up; as a definite right hand dominant person I doubt that I could surpass this casting LH up even with decent technique.

Be nice to be ambidextrous though!

Regards, Tyke.
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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-15-2019, 10:39 PM
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Just a thought... What cast finishes all of the casts two-handers make: it's a Roll Cast. Every cast uses this as a finish so practice a Roll Cast. Start with the rod low, lift the tip to eye level and slowly sweep the tip (cack-handed) to the firing position, hesitate/stop. Now, from that position make a Roll Cast.

So what keeps those evil tailing loops at bay--it's a slow and smooth acceleration to a stop. You hit early your tail. You hit it in the middle you tail. You hit it 6" (5cm) from the stop and slow down and you get a very, very late tail. It has to be slow and smooth stroke to a stop and nothing else will do. Think of it this way; if you can make the same cast over your dominant side without tailing you can do it cack-handed--it's the same effing stroke!

Practice my drill until it becomes normal and start by doing it slowly and stop--initially--at the top before the finish. As you get better flow through SLOWLY without a stop.

The last element to this is where the rod tip is in the firing position. Because you are cross handed your rod tip might, just might, be way too vertical. If your rod tip is at 12:30 (12:00 is straight up and down and 1:15 to 1:30 is ideal for an average cast) or even more upright, well, your screwed. Too short a casting stroke for the amount of line beyond the rod tip will cause a tailing loop everytime unless you are a casting God. Reason is, the you need more stroke length to achieve the smooth acceleration you need but, because you are cack-handed you're not reaching back far enough with the top hand. Your shoulder is blocking the way. Soooo, stop looking straight ahead and look at your dang hands and find out where they are when you start the cast. If it is really upright, your DEAD! You need to be a bit more flexible and trusting that a top hand that is reaching a bit farther back won't grab too much water and too much stick.

Good luck and hope this helps,

John Van Derhoof
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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by SoCalSpey View Post
Just a thought... What cast finishes all of the casts two-handers make: it's a Roll Cast. Every cast uses this as a finish so practice a Roll Cast. Start with the rod low, lift the tip to eye level and slowly sweep the tip (cack-handed) to the firing position, hesitate/stop. Now, from that position make a Roll Cast.

So what keeps those evil tailing loops at bay--it's a slow and smooth acceleration to a stop. You hit early your tail. You hit it in the middle you tail. You hit it 6" (5cm) from the stop and slow down and you get a very, very late tail. It has to be slow and smooth stroke to a stop and nothing else will do. Think of it this way; if you can make the same cast over your dominant side without tailing you can do it cack-handed--it's the same effing stroke!

Practice my drill until it becomes normal and start by doing it slowly and stop--initially--at the top before the finish. As you get better flow through SLOWLY without a stop.

The last element to this is where the rod tip is in the firing position. Because you are cross handed your rod tip might, just might, be way too vertical. If your rod tip is at 12:30 (12:00 is straight up and down and 1:15 to 1:30 is ideal for an average cast) or even more upright, well, your screwed. Too short a casting stroke for the amount of line beyond the rod tip will cause a tailing loop everytime unless you are a casting God. Reason is, the you need more stroke length to achieve the smooth acceleration you need but, because you are cack-handed you're not reaching back far enough with the top hand. Your shoulder is blocking the way. Soooo, stop looking straight ahead and look at your dang hands and find out where they are when you start the cast. If it is really upright, your DEAD! You need to be a bit more flexible and trusting that a top hand that is reaching a bit farther back won't grab too much water and too much stick.

Good luck and hope this helps,

John Van Derhoof
FFI THCI, MCI, BOGE
I like what you are saying here. I fixed a tailing loop by realizing I was bringing the rod too vertical! As I watched it the anchor was out and when I would pull the rod to a more 12-12:30 position it was no longer in a straight line with the anchor. This was more predominant on a double Spey cack handed. So I just would stay more compact ......aka keep the right hand shoulder in, and it would naturally stay at that 1:30-2 o’clock position.

I wonder, because of the nature of your body position, if the cack handed casts should be a little more of an angle than the dominant side cast?

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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 11:57 PM
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Yooper-Fly,

Ideally no, I think your position on one side should be the same as the other. But, and this depends on what "angle" your talking about—horizontal or vertical—you may have to make an extra effort on the cack-handed cast to achieve the same firing position.

Because the caster is reaching across their body and reaching above their opposite shoulder, movement of the casting arm becomes restricted and and is hindered and blocked by the non-casting shoulder itself. To compensate for this one can cast with the rod tip slightly lower towards the water (Horizontal) and reaching farther back (Vertical). Personally, I just try to make sure that the my firing position is the same as it is on my dominant side but if someone has restricted use of their casting arm through arthritis or rotator cuff issues then casting flatter/lower while reaching back may alleviate some of the strain on those parts that hurt like hell...

HOWEVER, the primary point I was making is that if your firing position when casting cack-handed is too vertical your casting stroke is too short for the amount of line beyond the tip of the rod. As you make the forward cast you will be forced to apply power too soon to try and compensate for the lack of stroke length needed to get the distance you want and bang: you be tailin'. Only God can pull this one off and and hit the perfect one iron as well... I find this especially a problem with newer casters that are afraid of laying the rod back a bit more for fear of grabbing too much stick. On other occasions that's what they do on the dominant side and their cack-handed casting is far superior because the lack of range of motion and their non-casting shoulder gets in the dang way. Long casts and short stokes don't cut it so don't be afraid to LOOK at where your hands are before you make the forward cast and then smoothly pull forward to a great stop.

John Van Derhoof
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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 01:08 AM
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Hey Gunnar,
The collected wisdom of the tribe is all good, but maybe a little too technical for a beginning caster. You might just try backing off a bit. No matter what you do, there is a risk of a tailing loop unless the leader and fly come out of the water perfectly straight and in line with the forward cast. Actually, just to "your" side of the forward cast. If you slow down at the end of the sweep and ease into the forward cast rather than powering it immediately, it gives the backward momentum of the d-loop just a bit more time to line everything up. Tailing loops are also very much influenced by the length of leader and the weight of the fly. A long leader with a heavy fly is very prone to tailing loops, all the more reason to work toward smooth sweeps with no slack, easing into the forward cast, and watching where the leader is going to come out of the water. Obviously, if you cast "across" the line, you are toast. Don't worry about distance at first. Work on rod load and loop shape, and the rest will come. But not tomorrow. This takes a lot of time....

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